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Yet again - something Afro doesn't know the answer to

Music Theory
Afro_Raven  
25 Nov 2007 10:44 | Quote
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Why is it that a Gm6 contains a major 6th instead of a minor 6th (i.e. E instaed of Eb)? A Gm6 is built off the Gm scale, which contains Eb, not E, so why is this not the case in the m6 chord?

Cheers!

Afro
blackholesun  
25 Nov 2007 13:50 | Quote
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it's probably because the "minor" bit comes from the fact there is a minor 3rd. If the 6th was a minor 6th then the chord would sound really bad because it would have the 5th (D) and the minor 6th (Eb) in it. not 100% sure myself though.
bodom  
27 Nov 2007 17:32 | Quote
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When your making the chord you apply the formulas to the Key of that chord. So for Gm6 the formula for a m6 is 1-b3-5-6 now use the notes in the Key of G.
Afro_Raven  
29 Nov 2007 02:57 | Quote
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Yes, that's correct for a major chord, but for a minor chord it is built off a minor scale, not a major scale. I have even asked my college lecturer who is a doctor of music about this and he can't work it out either!

Afro
Guitarslinger124  
29 Nov 2007 14:02 | Quote
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if you used D# you would have a D#maj7 chord....not a Gm6. im not sure why....but thats what you would have...just the way it works out i guess...haha-that prolly doesnt help you any...hope you find the answer!
bodom  
29 Nov 2007 16:17 | Quote
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No actually it is off the major. Chord formulas,both major and minor, are applied to the major scale. Major = 1-3-5 So on the major scale G A B C D E F# 1=G 3=B 5=D Minor = 1-b3-5 major scale G A B C D E F# 1=G b3=A# or Bb 5=D. If you applied the minor formula to the G minor scale you would get this: G minor scale = G A Bb C D Eb F minor 1-b3-5 1=G b3=B 3=D.
Afro_Raven  
30 Nov 2007 12:56 | Quote
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Bodom, I've just worked out why we're looking at it differently. You're based in Canada, so you're used to working with '3' and 'b3', whereas I am using European methods which are ' major 3' and 'minor 3'. A chord formula comes from whichever scale it most closely relates to - minor chord to minor scale, major to major, dim to dim and aug to aug. But I still can't find the answer to this question anywhere!

Afro
Doz  
30 Nov 2007 13:47 | Quote
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A minor third is a b3, from the major scale.

I've always done everything from the major scale myself. You do build a minor chord from it's root in the major scale (of whatever key it's in)... and it follows the minor scale because it's minor, basically.
Afro_Raven  
30 Nov 2007 16:18 | Quote
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To admin: why has my number of lessons now gone up yet again to 3?!?
bodom  
1 Dec 2007 09:44 | Quote
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Im not sure what your talking about. If I wanted to build a G chord using the minor scale I would have to reverse the chord formula. So insted of Major being 1-3-5 it would have to be 1-b3-5. Maybe Im not sure on how you look at it. Im actually intrested in how you were taught about chord formulas, can you explian it in more detail.
Doz  
1 Dec 2007 10:52 | Quote
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I think he means that when he makes major chords he uses the 1-3-5 formula from the major scale.

If he is making a minor chord he uses the 1-3-5 notes from the minor scale.

At the end of the day you get to the same point but it's less convenient due to the fact that all other chords (eg 7th chords and the like) will still need to be built on the major scale to work right since you obviously don't get a 7th scale to work with. So you'd be making all chords with the major scale and then just the minor chords with the minor scale.

I think... so it doesn't make much sense to do that. Unless i am missing something.
bodom  
1 Dec 2007 11:05 | Quote
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Yeah its like I said you would have to reverse it, change the formula. And I think thats the answer to his question why the 6 is not a minor 6. Because if you do it that way, from the minor scale, then the formula would have to be changed. And if you dont change it then it would be wrong. It just seems to me like its extra steps to get to the same point. But like you said we may be missing somthing. I am so hungover right now. LoL just thought Id let everyone know.
KicknGuitar  
13 Dec 2007 15:04 | Quote
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I think everyone has answered you question Afro.
"Why dopes a Gmin6 contain a Major sixth instead of a minor sixth?"

Gminor - To create a Major, Minor, Augmented, Diminished, Anything chord, we take the Major scale. Yes, the Major scale, NOT the minor, and slap the Major scale pattern onto the root note. In this case G is the root, hence G Major.

Once you can forget about following the minor scale and sticking with the Major, this may be repetative, but just look it over quickly then,

Now, to create a Major sixth, we have the triad (Intervals 1, 3, 5) and add a 6th from the Major scale pattern:


W W H W W W H
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
G A B C D E F# G
^ ^ ^ ^

We now have a P1, M3, P5 and M6,
E|-----------------------|
B|-----------------------|
G|-4------4-----------4--|
D|-2--------------2---2--|
A|-5----------5-------5--|
E|-3--3---------------3--|
P1 M3 P5 M6


Creating a Minor triad Chord is simply done by flatting 3rd, also known as a Minor Third. You do not move the sixth down a half step like you do with Seventh Chords (minor 7th - P1 m3 P5 m7, Major 7th - P1 M3 P5 M7, Dominant 7th - P1 M3 P5 m7).

So we have a minor 6th with a P1 m3 P5 M6


E|-----------------------|
B|-3----------3-------3--|
G|-3------3-----------3--|
D|-2--------------2---2--|
A|-----------------------|
E|-3--3---------------3--|
P1 m3 P5 M6



We have a M6th because it's THE sixth of the scale, adding a minor sixth(D# {Eb}) into the chord we created makes a Major 7th - G D# A# D, (the resoan this happens? probably some math thingy)


D Maj 7th
E|(3)----(3)---------(3)-|
B|-3-------------3----3--|
G|-3----------3-------3--|
D|-1--1---------------1--|
A|-----------------------|
E|-3------3-----------3--|
P1 M3 P5 M7


Does this make sense? I hope it helps.
Afro_Raven  
14 Dec 2007 04:49 | Quote
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KicknGuitar says:
Does this make sense? I hope it helps.


Erm...not really lol! But thanks for trying anyway!

Afro
Guitarslinger124  
14 Dec 2007 12:23 | Quote
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KicknGuitar says:
We have a M6th because it's THE sixth of the scale, adding a minor sixth(D# {Eb}) into the chord we created makes a Major 7th - G D# A# D, (the resoan this happens? probably some math thingy)


thats like what i said before... adding the minor sixth totally changes the chord...all the chords are built off scales...and in this major scale its a major sixth...just tried to simplify what kicknGutiar said...thats just the way it works out...the reason goes all the way back to how a major scale is created. it just is...so the same is with this...adding the minor 6th, as opposed to the major 6th, changes the chord. thats it...
Notim  
14 Dec 2007 16:24 | Quote
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That makes sence
KicknGuitar  
15 Dec 2007 23:27 | Quote
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Afro_Raven says:
Erm...not really lol! But thanks for trying anyway!

I'm not done yet, just what is it that didn't make sense, or maybe try to re-instate your question so we can focus on that.


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