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Key Concepts help?

Technique
matt8675  
10 Oct 2011 10:54 | Quote
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Im not so sure I understand a big part that I should probably know for playing guitar. I dont get the whole "Ionian, dorian, phygrian, mixylodian, aeloian, and locrian" key thing. Im sure I can understand it with a little explaining, can anyone give me a simple explanation? Would be greatly appreciated. I do however know how to stay in the same key while moving up and down the fretboard if that helps any..
Guitarslinger124  
10 Oct 2011 11:16 | Quote
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Basically, all those notes you are playing while "in the same key" are assigned a given order and those given orders are what people refer to as modes, i.e. the:

matt8675 says:
"Ionian, dorian, phygrian, mixylodian, aeloian, and locrian" key thing.


Check out my lesson Beginner/Intermediate Mode Lesson for more info.

Hope that helps.

Rock on!
gshredder2112  
10 Oct 2011 11:21 | Quote
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Ill give it a shot

Lets say your Key is cmaj
C,D,E,F,G,A,B- cmajscale
Each note of the scale Can be used as a mode.
Cmaj,c,d,e,f,g,a,b
D dorian D,E,F,G,A,B,C
E PYRGIAN E,F,G,A,B,C,D
F LYDIAN F,G,A,B,C,D,E
G MIXOLYDIAN G,A,B,C,D,E,F
A AEOLIAN(NATURAL MINOR) A,B,C,D,E,F,G
B LOCRIAN B,C,D,E,F,G,A
As you can see,those modes,all contain the same
exact notes as your key(scale) cmaj,just in a different order.

Theres alot of great lessons,on chord scale,modes etc on here that
explain this more in depth.But i can answer questions
too.

\M/(*-+)
gs2112
macandkanga  
10 Oct 2011 11:56 | Quote
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
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I like visuals. This is the whole fretboard in A Major. It's the same 7 notes repeated all over the fretboard. If your root note/key is A major, it's in A Ionian. If your root note/key is B, it's B Dorian and so on. In other words the major scale is 7 notes chopped up into 7 scales called the modes.


matt8675  
10 Oct 2011 15:11 | Quote
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I kinda understand, like if im playing a Cmaj scale, then I move up to a dorian shape, its the same key, right?

But what I am not getting is what people mean by "Oh, this is a f phygrian lick" or "Its an A mixylodian lick" wtf does that mean??
matt8675  
10 Oct 2011 15:12 | Quote
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Thanks for the help guys btw.
macandkanga  
10 Oct 2011 16:05 | Quote
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
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matt8675 says:
I kinda understand, like if im playing a Cmaj scale, then I move up to a dorian shape, its the same key, right?


Right. Same key but different mode. C ionian to C Dorian. The intervals are different from mode to mode.

Major/Ionian W W H W W W H

Dorian W H W W W H W

Phrygian H W W W H W W

Lydian W W W H W W H

Mixolydian W W H W W H W

Minor W H W W H W W

Locrian H W W H W W W

nullnaught  
10 Oct 2011 16:10 | Quote
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
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Until you can memorize the modes names, you can do what I do and think of them as numbers. Ionian being the first.




case211  
10 Oct 2011 16:13 | Quote
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Quote:
"Oh, this is a f phygrian lick" or "Its an A mixylodian lick" wtf does that mean??

I think that would be determined either by the root note of whatever lick you play.
Example:


e-7-5----------
B----8-7-5-----
G---------7-5-4
D--------------
A--------------
E--------------

This would be considered a B Phrygian lick based on the root and end notes of the lick.
However, this:


e-8-7-5----------
B-------7-5------
G-----------7-5-4
D----------------
A----------------
E----------------

I would consider to be based out of C Lydian even though the end note is on a B. BUT, landing on the B or even an A or G, will give the lick a different tonality each time(it changes the mood a bit so to speak)but I don't think it determines the mode the lick is based out of. I'm probably wrong on this, but it's how I've always known it.
The end note of a run is just as important as the rest of it, since landing on the right note at the end of a shredfest run is ultra rewarding as a player and performer.
Hope this helps somewhat, and if I totally explained it wrong--here's the good news--I'm sorry ;)
matt8675  
10 Oct 2011 16:16 | Quote
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Oh alright, thanks for the help!!
DanielM  
11 Oct 2011 02:23 | Quote
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It's actually mainly determined by the chord progression/underlying harmony. If the chord progression is C major then that lick is in C major.
V3N0M3333  
12 Oct 2011 20:39 | Quote
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mode is just what part of a scale you start from.

all of the modes of a scale have the same exact notes....just the position you start on is what makes it a different name

D Dorian is CMaj(Ionian) from the 2nd degree(note) and so on



C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C C Ionian
D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D D Dorian
E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E E Phrygian
F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F F Lydian
G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G G Mixolydian
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A A Aoilian
B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B B Locrian


i dont want to sound rude when i say this but to me usually when people say "o alright", that means they dont fully understand. sorry if im wrong lol
Guitarslinger124  
13 Oct 2011 03:06 | Quote
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V3N0M3333 says:


C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C C Ionian
D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D D Dorian
E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E E Phrygian
F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F F Lydian
G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G G Mixolydian
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A A Aoilian
B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B B Locrian



That is actually a really good table man! You mind if I use that?


Rock on!
V3N0M3333  
13 Oct 2011 10:15 | Quote
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thanks! =D that actually means alot coming from you. go ahead and use it, man!
btimm  
13 Oct 2011 11:08 | Quote
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V3N0M3333 says:
mode is just what part of a scale you start from.

all of the modes of a scale have the same exact notes....just the position you start on is what makes it a different name

D Dorian is CMaj(Ionian) from the 2nd degree(note) and so on


I could be wrong, but my understanding of modes is that what is stated here is only partially true. I guess a good way to explain my understanding here is that this is the way to understand modes if you want a "quick fix".

From what I know (and again, I could be wrong, someone please correct me if I am or extrapolate on what I say), modes are not based on what degree of the major scale is the starting point, but actually more to do with the intervals. What I mean is that using C as an example:

C Ionian: C D E F G A B C
D Dorian: D E F G A B C D

Yes, this is true, but what is really important is that it is:

Ionian: W-W-H-W-W-W-H
Dorian: W-H-W-W-W-H-W

Yes, in practice it is simply moving up one degree on a scale, but the important part to understand is the intervals, not just the notes of the scale, if that makes any sense.

Furthermore, just because you start on D, end on D, and use some run without accidentals does not make it in D Dorian. If the chord progression is in C major and you use such a run, my understanding is that you would still be in C Ionian, meaning basically that I always thought that the mode had more to do with the underlying chord progression, as DanielM stated.

I am just learning these things myself (though I have no idea how understanding modes will improve my ability to play or make more enjoyable music), so I could be off base here.

Hey, that actually could be a really cool lesson now that I think about it. Forget explaining modes to people. Explain to me how understanding modes will improve my ability to create music and how it can be used in an interesting manner. To me, all the theory in the world is completely meaningless if it doesn't lead to any sort of practical usefullnes.

For example, I understand triads pretty well. I have been practicing them a ton on the guitar and really trying to get them down pat. I feel pretty comfortable with it, and my music knowledge base made it such that learning the major triads was all I needed to really do. If I want to play a minor, my finger automatically flats the third. If I want to do augmented, dah dah dah and so on. But that wasn't the big important part of learning for me. What was really cool was watching some youtube videos and doing some research on the internet and finding out how to implement them into my music. Learning cool ways of how triads are actually used in practice, not just that they are the base building block of all other chords.

So ... I could make it a formal lesson request if need be. Or someone could just make a post here, but I think I have a question I have failed to see anyone answer yet: How does understanding modes improve the ability to make music? Furthermore, how are modes actually used in practice and why?
macandkanga  
13 Oct 2011 14:30 | Quote
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
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Same table as Venom but with intervals instead of notes:

Major/Ionian W W H W W W H

Dorian W H W W W H W

Phrygian H W W W H W W

Lydian W W W H W W H

Mixolydian W W H W W H W

Minor W H W W H W W

Locrian H W W H W W W

macandkanga  
13 Oct 2011 14:34 | Quote
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I had to upload a picture. Previous post didn't insert my spaces!


Guitarslinger124  
14 Oct 2011 03:42 | Quote
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I had written, literally, about two pages here, but the computer froze so I will try and do this again.




macandkanga says:
Previous post didn't insert my spaces!


Use the tab feature. It will retain your literal formatting and it looks nicer! :)



btimm says:
So ... I could make it a formal lesson request if need be. Or someone could just make a post here, but I think I have a question I have failed to see anyone answer yet: How does understanding modes improve the ability to make music? Furthermore, how are modes actually used in practice and why?


That is an interesting question Btimm. Essentially, knowledge is power, kind of along the lines of, Forwarned is forarmed. When I first started playing bass, I asked my dad for help, I asked him, teach me something. At that time, playing bass for me was just stringing notes together and hoping that the end product sounded good or at least sounded the way I wanted it to sound. The response my father gave me really turned a light on in my brain. He replied, What do you want to know? to that I said, astounded I might add, I have no idea. I didn't know!

Knowing what a scale is or what a triad is, is one thing. Knowing how to use it is another. It is like learning what the plus symbol is in math class for the first time or learning that the Ionian scale is the first mode. Great, now you know that there is a such thing as adding, now you know that there are modes, but what are you adding, what are you going to do with this mode and how do you apply that to real life?

That is the eternal question that all musicians will ask at some point. What do I do with the knowledge that I have? Why should I bother learning theory at all?

That answer is simple. Like what happened to me when I asked my dad to teach me, what you don't know you don't know and not knowing someting that applies directly to the subject at hand is obviously not a something that you don't want to know. It doesn't hurt.

There are actually a couple good lessons on this site that should be able to help you answer this question.

Check out:

Scales and Their Chords By, JazzMaverick

Also check out these lessons, because I know Jazzs' lesson might be too deep for some:

Music Theory - Turning Your Scales into Chords

Music Theory: Stack 'em and Smack 'em



I am by no means an expert, so all I can do is suggest to you what I do and hope that it helps you out. Grab a pen and piece of paper. Pick a chord, any chord, but just one chord. Record yourself playing that one chord over and over. Or just once or twice and loop it. Next pick five modes and, don't solo per say because you want to really hear what you are doing, play them over your one chord. Play them one after the other. Or play all the modes in every key. But play them so you can clearly hear what they sound like. Now write down, and this is why I said pick five, what each one sounds like over that chord. I.e. "good", "bad", "cool sounding", "sad sounding", whatever. Now pick two chords and repeat the process. Except this time you can experiment a little. Play the chords however you'd like. As arppeggios or whatever you want. Play the same scales over just your two chords and write down what it sounds like. This time however, pay close attention to how two chords sounds different under the same scale as one chord does. Or how a particular mode is more suited for a particar note a one of the chords.

The goal of this is to hopefully help you understand exactly what effect particular chords and scales have on each when played in conjunction with one another. Now you will no longer have to waste time guessing and checking when all you really want to do is record. You will now know what a certain scale will sound like, also with using Jazzs' lesson as a guide, when played over a certain chord or even more specific, what certain intervals will sound like when played together as a harmony or when played seperate as melodies.

Again, I had originally written a whole helluva lot more as an answer, but I accidentally lost it. So I hope this sufficiently got my point across.

btimm says:
To me, all the theory in the world is completely meaningless if it doesn't lead to any sort of practical usefullnes.



Plus one thousand for this. I know I stressed that in one of my lessons. But everything in the world is impractical if it cannot be applied to real life solutions in a plausible manner.

It's really a shame I lost what I had typed before because I have so much to say about this subject, but I fear I used all my words up :(.
I would love to delve more into this if a further explanation or conversation is indeed needed.

Rock on!
macandkanga  
14 Oct 2011 14:56 | Quote
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
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Before I ever learned anything about theory, I knew chords, scales, patterns and all kinds of songs. I knew how to make up my own licks and so on. I was self taught just by listening. I was even in a band! However, when I got a book about theory and read it, things changed: Before, I knew the "whats and hows". Then I read the book on theory and began to understand the "whys". My playing improved and continues to because now I am able to go beyond what I knew before. Science and art sometimes goes hand in hand.
matt8675  
14 Oct 2011 17:29 | Quote
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I like the table V3nom put, thats really helpful, and the whole/half step thing from macandkanga. Im gonna try to apply those.
RA  
14 Oct 2011 19:29 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
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major reasons to know modes.

Modal music. Even if you only play Major/minor tonality playing in modal helps understand music and many classical progress are derived from modes (think andalusian cadence). Just play a bass pedal and play modes to understand what makes them tick( leading and suspensions are generally give aways)

Understanding the relationships between the notes specifically chords. Thus knowing what ones,how, and when to use accidentals.


**note** suspensions, while generally referrer to 4ths and sometimes 2nd, are really anything the suspends the 3rd cycle of the chord is a suspension**note**
btimm  
14 Oct 2011 19:51 | Quote
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There is some really good information here guys, thanks so much! I will definitely be messing around with what you suggested gs124It is a shame that what you wrote was erased. This has happened to me too many times, so now if I know I am going to write something lengthy, I write it in Word and then paste onto a forum, hahaha. I hope some more discussion about applications of modes and reasons to know them will stem from this thread.
RA  
14 Oct 2011 20:23 | Quote
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I have a bit more down time so I'll talk a bit more.

lets look at the Ionian mode and the Lydian mode.

Reference
Ionian-1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Lydian-1,2,3,4#,5,6,7

As you should know (if you don't Very important to learn) The Ionian scale basically always function with the Perfect cadence (V7 to I) and this works buy the resolution of the 4th and 7th to the 3rd and 1st. or the V7 3rd and b7th to the I 3rd and 1st (in key C, G,B,F to C,E,G).

If you don't know the characteristic notes of the Lydian scale it is the #4th and the 7th (i think it is pretty obvious but hey) as apposed to the 4th and 7th of Ionian. This #4 is what makes the Ionian key more stable as in Ionian the 4th and 7th make a tritone(key of C, F and B) As you should know tritones are very unstable so it wants to resolve in the worst way thus pulling it to the 3rd and 1st(key of C, E and C). but with Lydian the #4 and 7th are a perfect 5th apart, and as you should know fifths are very stable, thus it's happy where it is and no strong resolution.

This is all derived from the study of the relationships between the modes. What we learn is how things function and thus if we want something to sound like Lydian we need to make sure not to make the V7 I resolution or the key/feeling will change. Also make sure that #4th 7th relationship doesn't stagnate it. So we construct our chord to stress ONE of the characteristic notes (general #4th) while not making a V7 to I by mistake.
case211  
14 Oct 2011 23:12 | Quote
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Personally, I've always found it helpful to think of modes as moods. Each one has it's own personality(especially the different keys).

If you do what Ra recommended:
RA says:
Just play a bass pedal and play modes to understand what makes them tick( leading and suspensions are generally give aways)


It's the best way to go about it; words can only do so much.


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