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Counterpoint

Music Theory
gshredder2112  
12 Sep 2011 23:56 | Quote
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
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I would like to hear exactly what counterpoint is.
I would like an advanced explaination and a counterpoint
for dummies explaination also,thanks"

\M/(*-+)
gs2112
DanielM  
13 Sep 2011 04:25 | Quote
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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Basically when two independent melodies are played at once.

If you really want to learn counterpoint well I would suggest practising strict species counterpoint and once you've got that down you can start experimenting yourself and paying less attention to the rules.

Remember Bach is the master of species counterpoint but he at times broke his own rules.

If you like I could write a lesson on counterpoint which covers all I think you'd need to know then the comments section could cover the for dummies part for anything you didn't get?
Guitarslinger124  
13 Sep 2011 04:34 | Quote
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DanielM says:
Basically when two independent melodies are played at once.


Essentially. However, counterpoint is more than just two independant melodies. What DanielM described is called Polyphony. Counterpoint is what I call two dimensional Polyphony. Not only do you have independant melodies, but also independant rhythms.

The key to successful counterpoint is have separate melodies with separate rhythmic patterns that are harmonically sound.

Rock on!

DanielM  
13 Sep 2011 05:41 | Quote
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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@GS maybe in modern day counterpoint but in first species each note of the cantus firmus sounds against one note of the counter melody so they have the same rhythm. Although species counterpoint is nowadays really just academic I do think building up a traditional knowledge of counterpoint is important for laying the foundations.

Of course first species is just the very very simplest form of counterpoint and with 2nd and onwards species counterpoint is independent of rhythm, but nevertheless it is considered counterpoint as long as you obey the rules: no parallel 3rds 5ths 6ths or octaves, contrary motion where possible and neither of the voices taking a large leap in the same direction at once. By following those rules the melodies are independent enough to be considered contrapuntal.

Of course no one would really write in strict species counterpoint unless they were trying to imitate baroque and then they wouldn't use first species so it could be argued that as it's purely academic my point is defunct.

In short I suppose there is an edge of personal opinion on whether nowadays it's valid to consider 1st species as counterpoint
V3N0M3333  
13 Sep 2011 05:52 | Quote
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oooooooo my father told me about this.
Guitarslinger124  
13 Sep 2011 06:23 | Quote
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DanielM says:
@GS maybe in modern day counterpoint but in first species each note of the cantus firmus sounds against one note of the counter melody so they have the same rhythm. Although species counterpoint is nowadays really just academic I do think building up a traditional knowledge of counterpoint is important for laying the foundations.

Of course first species is just the very very simplest form of counterpoint and with 2nd and onwards species counterpoint is independent of rhythm, but nevertheless it is considered counterpoint as long as you obey the rules: no parallel 3rds 5ths 6ths or octaves, contrary motion where possible and neither of the voices taking a large leap in the same direction at once. By following those rules the melodies are independent enough to be considered contrapuntal.

Of course no one would really write in strict species counterpoint unless they were trying to imitate baroque and then they wouldn't use first species so it could be argued that as it's purely academic my point is defunct.

In short I suppose there is an edge of personal opinion on whether nowadays it's valid to consider 1st species as counterpoint


I agree, it is a matter of opinion, albeit not personal. As I understand it, species counterpoint is one thing- that also happens to be, as you say, academic; while counterpoint is another, that is more practicle than acdemic. Your mention of 1st, 2nd... species counterpoint further renforces that point.

I'm not an expert, but logic would dictate, and this bit just as an add on to GS2112's topic starter (not aimed at a particular point of reference), that species counterpoint, whether it came first or second, nowadays, is simply a rational breakdown of counterpoint. Case in point: Chords and harmonies.

On another note, I'm glad to see some new and resfreshing conversation!

Rock on!
DanielM  
13 Sep 2011 06:39 | Quote
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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@GS It is nice to have a bit of a musical debate once in a while :D

The reason I advocate species counterpoint is because if you end up with parallel fifths etc then the melodies won't truly be independent but come across more as a series of chords. Learn the rules and then as you progress you give the melodies greater independence by spicing up the rhythm etc then when you finish you have a practical application that you can use musically.

Well I guess now we leave the floor open to questions :P
Guitarslinger124  
13 Sep 2011 06:49 | Quote
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DanielM says:
The reason I advocate species counterpoint is because if you end up with parallel fifths etc then the melodies won't truly be independent but come across more as a series of chords. Learn the rules and then as you progress you give the melodies greater independence by spicing up the rhythm etc then when you finish you have a practical application that you can use musically.


I can agree with that [leading back to your academic point].

Rock on!
gshredder2112  
13 Sep 2011 11:47 | Quote
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
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@Dm It would be awsome If you wrote a lesson.

I would like to learn everything there is too know
about it,old school,modern,species,and whatever else
Sounfs like something that could benefit my sound,composition
and knowledge of music in general.

Cool debate ftw...
RA  
13 Sep 2011 18:50 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
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http://www.amazon.com/Study-Counterpoint-Johann-Joseph-Parnassum/dp/0393002772/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315957722&sr=8-1


That's the text. The only Intro book (on any topic) I have ever seen that is actually all around good.

at lest learn Two voiced. It (counterpoint) will unlock music for you.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVadl4ocX0M

I like the Inventions (good to start with after you get the hang of it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyTA4CT0-pA&feature=related


I like Scarlatti, sometimes he is Homophony though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yhd-dpC_7o


ask your self why is this homophony yet the others where polyphony. Listen don't read/look it up. Then you'll know what counterpoint is by listing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af1bcpxxnxY&feature=related


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