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Arpeggio or Scale?

Music Theory
MoshZilla1016  
5 Jan 2011 10:47 | Quote
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I was working on stacking arpeggios(playing one above the other) when I came across this. The first arp. is A Maj


e---------
B---------
G---------
D-------2-
A----4----
E--5------

The second is G Maj7


e----------
B------3-7-
G----4-----
D--5-------
A----------
E----------

The full lick is..


e----------------------------
B-----------3-7-3------------
G---------4-------4----------
D-----2-5-----------5-2------
A---4-------------------4----
E-5-----------------------5--

My question...Is this an A13 Arpeggio or an A Mixolydian Scale??
macandkanga  
5 Jan 2011 11:11 | Quote
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I would say that it is an arpeggio based on the intervals and the best way to pick it out. Down 3, up 1, down 3, up 1, down 1, up 3 and so on.
MoshZilla1016  
5 Jan 2011 11:21 | Quote
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That's what I was thinking. The intervals being 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13.
nullnaught  
5 Jan 2011 12:01 | Quote
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doesnt a nine mean 2 but higher and a 11 and 13 mean 4 and 6 but higher also?
btimm  
5 Jan 2011 12:17 | Quote
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nullnaught says:
doesnt a nine mean 2 but higher and a 11 and 13 mean 4 and 6 but higher also?


Yes, I am pretty sure it does. With chords, I think that you see 9s and 11s because you don't want to muddy the sound of a 2 or 4 with a 3. So you either add the 2 or 4 and take away the 3, creating suspended chords or keep the 3 and 9 or 11. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. I know it's not relevant to the original topic, but I think it is relevant to Null's comment.
MoshZilla1016  
5 Jan 2011 13:13 | Quote
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Actually I find it relevant. That's what raised my question. 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13 is Arpeggio but 1 3 5 b7 2 4 6 is Mixolydian with degrees out of order. I put the notes in the reverse scale tool and got Mixolydian. So is it Arpeggio, scale or both? @nullnaught you see 9 11 13 when you use 7 and above mostly and use 2 4 6 when 7 is not used.
luthier  
5 Jan 2011 13:39 | Quote
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Well, I'm sufficiently confused now.
Guitarslinger124  
5 Jan 2011 13:43 | Quote
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I am no chord expert(more of a scales guy)... but I would say, it is more likely that you are looking at a Gmaj13 and G Lydian. Same key as A Mixolydian, but the tonality seems more Lydian to me.

MoshZilla1016 says:
The intervals being 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13.


The steps for A Mixolydian are in fact 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7. G Lydian, however, is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7.

Seeing as how chords are built from scales, it seems important that you understand the scale first.

btimm says:
Yes, I am pretty sure it does. With chords, I think that you see 9s and 11s because you don't want to muddy the sound of a 2 or 4 with a 3. So you either add the 2 or 4 and take away the 3, creating suspended chords or keep the 3 and 9 or 11. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. I know it's not relevant to the original topic, but I think it is relevant to Null's comment.


1-3-5-7 are all obvious. 1-3-5 is a major triad and 1-3-5-7 is, well, a seventh chord. The 2 and the 4 are generally used to create the well known suspended chords while the 6 is almost always an "add" interval, i.e. Gmajadd6. The 9 11 and 13 are called "extensions" or "compound intervals". The 9 is an octave and the 2. The 9 also almost always includes a Dominant 7th. The 11 as btimm said corrosponds to the 4 and the 13 corrosponds to the 6.

All in all, every interval has a function.


1 - Root
2,4 - Suspended
3 - Determines whether a chord is major or minor (i.e. Major 3rd or Minor 3rd)
5,9 - Flatted tones
7 - Seventh and Dominant tones
11 - Uses exensions, 7-9-11
13 - 1-3-7-13


The goal is to use an interval via its function to achieve the sound you want most efficiently.

Hope that helped.

Rock on!
Guitarslinger124  
5 Jan 2011 13:50 | Quote
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MoshZilla1016 says:
Actually I find it relevant. That's what raised my question. 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13 is Arpeggio but 1 3 5 b7 2 4 6 is Mixolydian with degrees out of order. I put the notes in the reverse scale tool and got Mixolydian. So is it Arpeggio, scale or both?


If you started pulling 9's, 11's and 13's out of scales, you would repeat youself, over and over. Therefore you don't mention 9,11,13 in a scale... It's rather pointless. In a chord, however, the 9, 11 and 13 are extensions that are pertinent to the chord.

When you are talking about arppeggios, you are talking about chords, therefore, the 9, 11 and 13 are relevent. But in scales, they are not relevent. Hence why you saw different results from the chord finder and scale finder.

Rock on!
MoshZilla1016  
5 Jan 2011 14:04 | Quote
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I can see where you at with the G Lydian. Same notes as the A Mixolydian but I'm not to sure about the GMaj13. The F# would be the Maj7 note but C# would be a #4 or #11, not found in 13th Arpeggio. It would work for a scale but not the arp.
Guitarslinger124  
5 Jan 2011 14:54 | Quote
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True...the C# is the #11 like you mentioned. My thought was simply linear, G to G. I am typing these responses while distracted by my fiance playing Wii fit. Poor excuse I know.

Good to see someone is catching my mistakes hehe.

Did my other post help answer your question though?

Rock on!
MoshZilla1016  
5 Jan 2011 16:33 | Quote
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Yeah man, it helped a lot. Thanks. Had not heard from you in a while, glad you're back. ALSO..
Guitarslinger124 says:
I am typing these responses while distracted by my fiance playing Wii fit. Poor excuse I know.

Maybe not so poor. Gotta take what she's wearing into consideration. Glad to know there are some men who still think like men ;)
RA  
5 Jan 2011 16:46 | Quote
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It's A13 without a doubt. If we look at it strictly as a chord (provide we could play it, lets said we did it on a piano) it is a closed voiced A13. The issue with us guitar players is that closed voicings are incredibly hard or imposable to pull off, so what you find, is guitar players most often play in droped voicings (drop 2 and 3 being the most common)

****On 2 and 9***

well we have to look at how we build chords, which is in thirds. Again we should do this on a piano as it is much easier to "see". Let's say we what to play a C major13 (all white keys). The scale Major13 corresponds to is Ionian which is the only notes we will use, which are C,D,E,F,G,A, and B. So we start with our root C making it our base note, then add the third corresponding to the scale which is E. Then add E's third, G. Then G's third, B (one note: patterns patterns patterns always look for patterns). Now interval wise, relative to our root, we have 1,3,5,7 when we add B's third, which is D, where not going to go backs to 2, we have to go forwards and if we count numerically form the root, C, it would be 9. You would then continue. When you get to the 13th or A, it's third is C, thus completing the cycle.

as shown chords are based off the cycle of thirds, the 9 is in that cycle the 2 is not (again easily shown on the piano). The reason why their called suspended chords, is they suspended the cycle and that is also why they resolve nicely. So the point, is a 2 is not technically a 9. They are octaves of each other but their in different cycles in this instance (note octaves really aren't the same note [have a different frequency {in Hz}] our ears just hear them as being very close [has to do with harmonics]).

but musician do use the 2 interval and not just as suspended it's dissonant yes, but people still do it (Bert Jansch is one, folky pople our noted for it)

For arguments shake and the fact I'm not about to go over scale construction, scales are made with Half-steps and Whole steps thus using 2s not 9s.


@mosh- first, in your G major7 chord, you may find it better to play the F# on the "E" string 2 fret. That way you don't have to move out of position.

it should be noted that all scales are arpeggios. Seeing that with any scale you can construct a chord with all the notes(may not be a usable one mind you) and any broken chord is an arpeggio. Therefore all scales, in that sense, can be view as arpeggios.

but, you bring up a topic I like a lot which is Ploychords.

which in it's basic sense, is two triads stack on top of each other to form an extended harmony. I could explain with words, but I'd rather just show cords.

C major + G major = C major 9
C(C,E,G) + G(G,B,D) = CM9(C,E,G,B,D)
--------THUS, THEOREM IS FORMED----
Root Major triad + 5th above Major triad = Root M9

C major + E minor = C Major 7
C(C,E,G) + E(E,G,B) = CM7(C,E,G,B)
--------THEOREM-------
Root Major Triad + 3rd above Minor Triad = Root M7


A Major + G Major7 = A13
A(A,C#,E) + G(G,B,D,F#) = A13(A,C#,E,G,E,D,F#)
-------THEOREM-------
Root Major Triad + 7th above Major 7th = Root13


now applying ploychords needs you to at lest have your 12 closed voiced triads down. Even if you don't care about poylchords LEARN YOUR TRIADS.

what this helps you with is, one, knowing your extended chords better, massive help in arranging, and is the basics of the whole interlocking guitar playing (two well trained guitarist will blow away any thing piano players think they do best, in my opinion at lest)




MoshZilla1016  
5 Jan 2011 16:57 | Quote
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@RA Thanks Millions
By the way did try the 7th on the e string fret2 but it felt more comfortable to me to use the B 7th fret. Just my own preference. Thanks again.
macandkanga  
5 Jan 2011 17:46 | Quote
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The way to really answer the initial question "Arpeggio or Scale?" is by looking at the tab. Whenever there is a triad or tonic notes of a scale on separate strings that are not played all at once but separatelly, it's an arpeggio.
btimm  
6 Jan 2011 07:36 | Quote
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There's some great information in this post, thanks everyone for taking the time to post, I learned quite a bit here!
nullnaught  
8 Jan 2011 12:06 | Quote
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@MoshZilla1016...Yes with the 9 you include the 7th. 11th, 7 and 9. and so on. My roomate told me this.
MoshZilla1016  
8 Jan 2011 14:17 | Quote
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What if you take the same notes/intervals and played them like this..


e---------------------------------------------------
B---------------------------------------------------
G-------------------------------------11----11-14---
D----------------------9----9-12-9-12----12---------
A--------7---7-10-7-10---10-------------------------
E--9-5-9---9----------------------------------------

Now it seems more like a scale than an arpeggio!! I like the sound of this since it will play up to the 2nd octave using only 8 notes.


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