new transposer      circle of 5ths    wap


I'm Just Not Understanding This

Beginners
Jkshoe  
24 Jan 2013 07:14 | Quote
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
United States
Licks: 1
Karma: 1
1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7

What is this?

What does it mean?!
btimm  
24 Jan 2013 09:27 | Quote
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
United States
Lessons: 2
Licks: 1
Karma: 16
Seems like the natural minor scale.

So C minor would be:
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
C D Eb F G Ab Bb

Which is also the relative minor to Eb major:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Eb F G Ab Bb C D

Some please correct me if I am wrong.
Jkshoe  
24 Jan 2013 10:58 | Quote
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
United States
Licks: 1
Karma: 1
What do the numbers represent?
Guitarslinger124  
24 Jan 2013 11:05 | Quote
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
United States
Lessons: 12
Licks: 42
Karma: 38
Moderator
You were close btimm.

Jkshoe says:
1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7


This is referencing the Melodic minor scale descending of course.

When you just see numbers with # and/or b symbols next to them, you are looking at a reference to the intervals which make up a type of scale, but not a particular key or note.

For example:


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = A Major Scale or Ionian mode. Nothing about those
numbers tell you what key this is scale is in or what notes to play.
The numbers are simply referring the the intervals and degrees.

The sequence of numbers is sort of like a code, or better yet, a tele-
phone number. When you "call" or play a certain sequence, you will get
a certain sound. Just like when you call a certain telephone number
you will reach a certain person.

The scale you have is the Melodic Minor Scale.

Take C major - C D E F G A B
Numerical Values - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C Melodic Minor - C D D# F G G# A#
Numerical Values - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

This is because (assuming you know that "b" means flat) to get the
D# you flat the E or 3rd of C major. To get the G# and
A#, you flat the 6th and 7th respectively.


Hope that helps.
Jkshoe  
24 Jan 2013 11:26 | Quote
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
United States
Licks: 1
Karma: 1
So... if I took D Major instead,

D, E, F♯, G, A, B, C♯

The Melodic Minor would be,

D, E, F, G, A, A#, C

Yes?

So the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 is a reference to the Major/Ionian?

And when playing in a different mode of the same key the # and b tells you which notes?
Guitarslinger124  
24 Jan 2013 11:41 | Quote
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
United States
Lessons: 12
Licks: 42
Karma: 38
Moderator
Sounds like you're on the right track.

Just don't get intervals and degrees confused and you'll be alright.
carlsnow  
24 Jan 2013 11:44 | Quote
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
United States
Lessons: 2
Karma: 23
Guitarslinger124 says:
You were close btimm.

Jkshoe says:
1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7

This is referencing the Melodic minor scale descending of course.


@Guitarslinger124
This may have been a Typo, or something else accidental...
BUT...

Unless someone dosed my coffee with LSD this morning, lol, what i read is a simple - plain old
Minor Scale
NOT Harm-Min
which = a different 'Mode' originating from a different "parent scale"altogether, and uses a Maj-7th(7) rather than the Flat-7(b7) in question here.

So instead what you have =
Ye Olde Simple "natural"-Minor ('Aeolian'... for theory buffs)
AKA
the 6th degree of the Maj Scale
(Maj = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)---(Min = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7)


in normal practice , a 7-tone scale with Flatted 3 6 & 7 = Natural-Minor, Aeolian-'mode', or plain Ole 'Minor'

RAWK!
Cs
Jkshoe  
24 Jan 2013 11:47 | Quote
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
United States
Licks: 1
Karma: 1
I have no idea what intervals and degrees are.
btimm  
24 Jan 2013 14:15 | Quote
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
United States
Lessons: 2
Licks: 1
Karma: 16
Jkshoe says:
I have no idea what intervals and degrees are.


Check out this lesson from the legendary Phipster, and read up on others. You don't NEED to know why things are the way they are to make good music, but to progress to any reasonable level, I think you would need to know theory. I liken music to science: the best way to learn and understand anything is to constantly ask and the question: Why?

You're on the right path my friend.

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/lesson.php?id=202
RA  
24 Jan 2013 14:31 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
@jksone

there is some math and theory that goes into it but I'm going to skip it. **None of the following is historically correct in anyway just used, as a way to help understand the topic**

effectively, Some people came up with a scale system and reasons for it and a whole bunch of other junk. Some people Liked one way of playing it so much they based almost all of the lexicon around it. That scale they liked so much was the major scale or more specially the "Ionian mode."

Now instead of talking about 2/3 and 3/4 and a bunch of other fractions (the math part), people started braking things down into "whole-steps" and "half-steps" (they did it in others ways too but this is the part your asking about). Know hopefully you know what those terms mean. So the major scale is W,W,H,W,W,W,H.... ergo if we pick "C" as our Key we get C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C.

*note* W,W,H,W,W,W,H is the intervals. it changes for the different scales

now remember people liked this scale so much it became the base scale. but sometimes we feel sad, confused, ect. and other scales do better at expressing this. But talking in steps gets confusing and using the letters gets really confusing when you change Keys. So people said hey we like the major scale so much lets just number it 1-7 and when a the scale/mode/whatever changes the steps/intervals/degrees; we will just change the numbers ---RELATIVE--- to the major scale, so will just say FLAT THIRD (written as b3) instead of a bunch of other gunk.

so what is the major scale?? W,W,H,W,W,W,H or 1,2,3,4,5,6,7

how about the minor scale?? W,H,W,W,H,W,W or 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7

so say we have C major or C,D,E,F,G,A,B or 1,2,3,4,5,6,7

but we want C minor well we know minor is 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
so we count 1-C,2-D,3-E whait!!! the 3 needs to be b3 egro C minor is C,D,bE... OR 1,2,b3...

so..

C major is C,D,E,F,G,A,B or 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
C minor is C,D,bE,F,G,bA,bB or 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7

Hopefully that helps... I firmly believe in the bashing your head against a wall way of learning. We keep throwing our own rocks at your head (hopefully one hits it good) and you keep hitting you head against the wall and eventually the gears inside your head will line up. The side effect however is you will become crazy; hopefully, like me your already crazy so, who cares.

**on other topic**

I'm with carlsnow, unless where talking about "common practice" theory and want to use their lexicon, drop the melodic ascending and descending junk. It adds nothing and just confuses everyone.
Jkshoe  
24 Jan 2013 15:38 | Quote
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
United States
Licks: 1
Karma: 1
Thanks for the help everyone.

I had no idea the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 thing was relevant to the Major scale.
Guitarslinger124  
25 Jan 2013 10:04 | Quote
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
United States
Lessons: 12
Licks: 42
Karma: 38
Moderator
carlsnow says:
@Guitarslinger124
This may have been a Typo, or something else accidental...
BUT...

Unless someone dosed my coffee with LSD this morning, lol, what i read is a simple - plain old
Minor Scale
NOT Harm-Min
which = a different 'Mode' originating from a different "parent scale"altogether, and uses a Maj-7th(7) rather than the Flat-7(b7) in question here.


Well, first, I didn't say Harmonic Minor and second, the Melodic Minor Descending is the same, harmonically as the Aeolian scale. So while yes, the 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 is the minor scale it is also the Melodic Minor scale.

Sorry for the confusion. I've been playing with these other scales lately and it popped into in my head first. And sorry btimm, you were correct in naming it the minor scale.
carlsnow  
26 Jan 2013 08:49 | Quote
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
United States
Lessons: 2
Karma: 23
Guitarslinger124 says:

Well, first, I didn't say Harmonic Minor and second, the Melodic Minor Descending is the same, harmonically as the Aeolian scale. So while yes, the 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 is the minor scale it is also the Melodic Minor scale.


You Have My apologies, Suh, ...
i read , HARMONIC rather Than MELODIC... OOPS!
(more coffee!)
eek
BUT

I still think you missed the scale ..so to speak
as: Melodic-Minor = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
and is a "Parent Mode" of its own (having 7 scales/modes/pasterns-etc "within It"
'(*containing my two faves! Lyd-Dom and Lyd-Aug
(#'s 2 and 3 of the Mel-Min "mode")


I also agree with RA concerning the over-use of 'theory' and the "confusion" over-theorizing causes younger(newer)students of the art
RA says:
C major is C,D,E,F,G,A,B or 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
C minor is C,D,bE,F,G,bA,bB or 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7

talking in steps gets confusing and using the letters gets really confusing when you change Keys. So people said hey we like the major scale so much lets just number it 1-7 and when a the scale/mode/whatever changes the steps/intervals/degrees; we will just change the numbers ---RELATIVE--- to the major scale, so will just say FLAT THIRD (written as b3) instead of a bunch of other gunk.
**on other topic**

I'm with carl snow, unless where talking about "common practice" theory and want to use their lexicon, drop the melodic ascending and descending junk. It adds nothing and just confuses everyone.


Guitarslinger124 says:
Sorry for the confusion. I've been playing with these other scales lately and it popped into in my head first.


Duuuuude.. lol IF I had a PENNY for every Typo-etc i made I'd be on a private island somewhere!! LOL

Guitarslinger124 says:
Well, first, I didn't say Harmonic Minor and second, the Melodic Minor Descending is the same, harmonically as the Aeolian scale. So while yes, the 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 is the minor scale it is also the Melodic Minor scale.


I still think the Above statement is incorrect
(if not I've been teaching Mel Min wrong fer 20+ years lol)
THEORETICALLY you could make some semi-argument for it somewhere i suppose.,
BUT, this, as RA intoned that sort of 'descending/ascending" crapolla gets confusing as hell.
***ESP to *new/beginning(*less than 10 yrs or so)students

The 'mode" , Melodic Minor, is characterized as being a Major with a b3(flatted third) ... This is how it "gained its "own" modal "status"
(..and like i said contains my fav to scales , Lyd-Dom and Lyd -Aug )
and whether you descend or ascend Melodic Minors 'frame' of
1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 (IE: 7 6 5 4 b3 2 1) it remains Melodic Minor,
Just as
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (backwards) b7 b6 5 4 b3 2 1 will still = Minor.

We do know, obviously that a "relative-min" = its Major (the 1 to 6 ratio) ... I wont go into here.
as I caution against this theory this early in the game, as the question was from a strict beginner...

I DO hope i am not coming across as Snarky or Rude (as it is far from my intent)

But..
Minor = Minor
Melodic-Minor = Melodic-Min

and while 'Minor' is the 6th degree of the Major
Melodic Minor is not, thus giving IT a 'mode" of its own...r

BTW...
Ya see HOW right RA was lol
...that's seriously confusing to a new-new player! ;)

RAWK!
Cs


PS
I came back to Post-Script the above, as we all DID wade out a bit far into the theory pool, for a beginner's question, i figured what the Heck? - Why NOT (LOL) ADD the actual NAMES and **("ADDRESSES") of
Melodic-Minor and Harmonic-Minor Scales?
(**"addresses" is a ter5m i use with my students that i feel could be of use to some online-beginners and 'FIT" a forum-style information-hub, Dig?

'address' = where scale LIVES .. AKA its #'s
Maj Address-1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Min Address - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7....and so on
I TEACH(Beg-intermediates..10 yrs or so) these address via Omission Fromm Major ("Ionian)
so
Address's =
Maj 0
Min 3 6 7 (flats
Lydian - #4
Mel-Min (mode 1) b3 said as INFERRED Flat as 3
...
so Dorian would = 3 7(flats)
and so forth....
hey it may not be a fit for ALL, but almost all of my students swear by this , even tho olde crotchety types:)

Also
...and this makes sense ... it really does , but unless yer theory buff IGNORE HIS...

Okay, Mr Slinger
You got me to ah'thinking re Mel/Harm-Min scales
and i remembered
(from the HELL of Scoring an Episode of Histories Mysteries arrrgh!!)
THAT ... out here in the starving-pro world lol the Mode Name Melodic Minor is never used! (wild huh!?) We (Commercials etc) simply name it 'Melodic' NOT Melodic Minor, As (truth) we yabber about so many scales etc that 'Minor' gets overused, as a word, due to the semi-popular scale/"mode" 'Harmonic Minor' (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7) b7 (scored as -7), the ever present Pent(Pentatonic, "minor implied"), an so forth.
I always found that kinda fun/interesting.
(and to further complicate stuff, lol, in Knox or GNashville studios(most)all charts non-dot+dash oriented have NO b-anything lol, naw to that -5 = b5, a Triangle = M7, etc... so (i think RA mentioned as well) the LEXICON itself is daunting.
so yeah
theory
can
be
a

d
e
e
p

h
o
l
e
(if we let it)















btimm  
26 Jan 2013 12:36 | Quote
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
United States
Lessons: 2
Licks: 1
Karma: 16
Guitarslinger124 says:
And sorry btimm, you were correct in naming it the minor scale.


No need for apologies in my book bud!
carlsnow  
26 Jan 2013 12:55 | Quote
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
United States
Lessons: 2
Karma: 23
DaYum were some apologetic folks eh?....EH!?

btimm says:
btimm says:
Guitarslinger124 says:
GuitarSwinger[quote=carlsnow says:
GROUP-HUG...*&$&^%'s
(B'Gawd!)0
And sorry btimm, you were correct in naming it the minor scale.


No need for apologies in my book bud!
carlsnow says:
i see lil white doves
Hugs
Guitarslinger124 says:
Huggy-Poo


Copyright © 2004-2017 All-Guitar-Chords.com. All rights reserved.