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Hmmmm...

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case211  
1 Sep 2011 20:09 | Quote
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
United States
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So I usually keep out of political arguments but, how many of you think the US is on it's last leg?
Gibson guitars was raided last week August 24, 2011(for the second time)--over "illegal" woods from India. And I'm sure you read about the first time back in 2009. They have yet to have any charges filed against them, and the US Govt. still has their property.

I don't know about you, but I'm moving to Canada! BBT, you got a guest room?
DarkRiff  
1 Sep 2011 20:25 | Quote
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
United States
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Karma: 12
I can't really blame them for raiding certain places. I'm tired of corporations getting their own way. They export jobs out of the country and the government doesn't do **** about it. The rich get **ing richer and the poor poorer. So yea **** Gibson, **** the banks, **** big corporations. The Legislative, Executive, and Judicial keep and eye on each other, Why can't government have it's regulations on corporations. **** the conservatives who call the rich "job creators" and say "corporations are people". Look what you did case. Thanks for getting me started.
btimm  
1 Sep 2011 20:53 | Quote
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
United States
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Feel free to move to Russia where the government has a say in everything. See how that works out for you and how much you like your life.
DarkRiff  
1 Sep 2011 20:57 | Quote
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
United States
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Karma: 12
I didn't say interfere with the individuals rights. But corporations need to be regulated, These CEOs make waaaaaaay too much money. Athletes are just as bad. Nobody need 3 million a year to swing a bat, While minimum wage is under $10 and hour. Simply what I mean is...the more money you make, they more you should be taxed. It's pretty sad when the owner of Walmart has more money than the treasury.
tinyskateboard  
1 Sep 2011 22:11 | Quote
Joined: 28 Apr 2010
United States
Karma: 11
Totally DarkRiff,
when I was a kid I used to think like a modern American communist, I like my country but I fear my government, but now that I'm an old guy I just get mad at the individual parts of the problems. If the government went after everybody who did something wrong with the same gusto, then that might be fair. But we have agencies selectively targeting certain companies, (wtf is wrong with Gibson? I thought they were on the cutting edge of doing DNA analysis on their woods to make sure they were not counterfeited or endangered), and leaving predatory lending banks alone...yeah...that sux.
DarkRiff  
1 Sep 2011 22:23 | Quote
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
United States
Licks: 2
Karma: 12
@TSB

I can't really tell if your agreeing with me. Maybe we shouldn't be "raiding" Gibson, but I just feel there should be a good amount of regulations on large business/corporations (Not small businesses). It disgusts me that B of A, Exxon, and other corporations are getting tax breaks and that they give their big wigs huge bonuses while the government is cutting social security, medicare, and other programs that help the less fortunate. And I know somebody is gonna bring up the fact that "those systems are abused", yes by some, but should we punish everyone and hurt those who actually NEED it just to get the ones who abuse it? People want jobs, then put a huge tax on corporations that decide to leave the country, hire and train people to look into social program abuse, Hire people to fix all the damn potholes in this country. But the government won't have any kind of money to provide more jobs because to many corporations have all the money and want to pay their workers $hit wages. People like Bachmann wanting to eliminate minimum wage just piss me off. If anything minimum wage should be brought up to at least a paycheck that someone could live on. To me Gibson is just another corporation. I'm not gonna criticize them too much because I don't know how their working conditions are. All I know is B of A, and Exxon are paying a lot less in taxes than the average American does, and thats bull$hit. And yea, I'll criticize government too. I'm tired of all these corrupt politicians, A campaign shouldn't be based around money, because it only causes the politicians to do favours for the corporations that helped them in their campaign. There needs to be more average, every-day, As unbias as possible Americans running this government. Not the power and money hungry politicians we have today.
gshredder2112  
2 Sep 2011 03:03 | Quote
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
United States
Licks: 3
Karma: 22
Oh a political rant. Fun stuff. The bigger companies should be
taxed more,but not for the sake of saying"your too rich
we wanna take your money away"'Thats not what America is based
on,if i was rich,i wouldnt want me to be unfairly taxed,i would want
it done in in a way theres not somebody on the other side
of the taxes going""You dont deserve your money,because all you
do.is swing a bat""Its capitalism,we americans have the right
to make as much money as possible,without ridicule of how its aquired. But more shoyld also =more taxes,because you can afford
to do it,because you have a higher income,because you live in
america,and the freedom allowed you to earn that money.
my 2€
case211  
2 Sep 2011 09:20 | Quote
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
United States
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gshredder2112 says:
,we americans have the right
to make as much money as possible,without ridicule of how its aquired.

Well... Heroin and coke dealers would get a fair amount of flak I think.

I read that Gibson has also had the first raid's confiscated materials authenticated and documented by the Madagascar govt. that they were 100% legal.
Apparently the Dept. of Justice is 'interpreting' an Indian law about Indian woods having to be finished by an Indian worker(fully finished). Even though India did not sanction any such raid or action against Gibson. I read that the 'reason' behind the most recent raid was that they(Gibson) were using 'partially finished woods'.
The fact that they have fully armed SWAT members raiding a guitar factory--"Careful men, he may hit an F#!"--is just mind boggling to me.
I'm more concerned about what this may be revealing about things to come. I mean, if men armed with automatic weapons are raiding a guitar factory, sactioned by the Dept. of Justice, what does that say about our future as a nation?
It seems like they are slowly sweeping the Constitution under the rug as well, which they may not be, I hope not anyways, but that would be rough on everyone if it were to happen.
I don't know guys, but America's future looks a bit bleak from here.

@Darkriff
Hey man, political rants are usually good to get out ;)
RA  
2 Sep 2011 10:21 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
yeah, liberalism is dead. bring on the fascist I'm ready for the party the only problem is I'm horribly unfashionable and they will probably kill me. I got to start reading Hobbes and Machiavelli to prepare. I have spent to much time with Locke and the bunch.

as for what a corporation is (as surprisingly many I find don't know) ; it's a legal entity under law that has full stats rights or at lest full where it matters. So it is a person under are laws. Its not just a term for big businesses. it has legal repercussions.

honestly, they never should of existed in the Sates. With the notably exception of Hamilton and hardline federalists, every one hated them. We should of at lest done the Charter way as they have to have strict objectives (didn't work well that way either). We can thank New Jersey for starting the free wheeling corps we have to day. However, you can make the argument without them we would of never of developed like we did. Still, somedays I like the Jeffersonian ideal of the yeoman farming society free from the corruption of the old world.

eh O well, Down with snokki, Up with the party...............please don't hurt me I got a Flag I got a flag.
macandkanga  
2 Sep 2011 11:26 | Quote
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
United States
Karma: 21
This is interesting:

Allegations of politicization

The raids on Gibson Guitar's facilities became politicized following Juszkiewicz criticism of the federal government, when right-wing bloggers using OpenSecrets.org concluded that the raids and investigation were politically motivated since Juszkiewicz donated more to Republicans during the previous election season, whereas the C.E.O. of Gibson Guitar's competitor, C.F. Martin & Company supported Democratic candidates, yet his company was not raided despite also reportedly using the same wood.

Left-wing bloggers later criticized these accusations, while also noting an inconsistency in Gibson Guitar's press release. They pointed out that following the 2009 raid, Juszkiewicz began working with the Rainforest Alliance on developing a new wood sourcing plan—suggesting they were acknowledging a problem with the source of their wood—but following the 2011 raid, Juszkiewicz claimed to have sworn statements and documents from the Madagascar government proving the wood was legal.

That was all from Wikipedia.

As per usual, it's all political. No one really cares about the wood. Consumers don't care either. Has any of you thought about where the wood your guitar is made of from? Do you know where the diamond your wife has on finger came from? Were the clothes you're wearing made by children in a third world country? Was the cow that your belt was made from treated right before she was killed?

The ugly truths about the products we consume is beyond reconcile. No one is innocent.

Don't get me wrong. It's not that I don't think people care. I don't think people REALLY care. If we did, we would REALLY do something about these things.
btimm  
2 Sep 2011 12:08 | Quote
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
United States
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DarkRiff says:
I didn't say interfere with the individuals rights. But corporations need to be regulated, These CEOs make waaaaaaay too much money. Athletes are just as bad. Nobody need 3 million a year to swing a bat, While minimum wage is under $10 and hour. Simply what I mean is...the more money you make, they more you should be taxed. It's pretty sad when the owner of Walmart has more money than the treasury.


Oh, I could not disagree more. The people who make insanely large amounts of money like athletes and CEOs get it through their hard work and talents. It all comes down to money. If you possess a skill that will bring in your employer millions and millions (or billions) of dollars, then you should be paid your WORTH. Sports example. Do you think the New York Yankees would being in the same revenue if they had a team full of marginal players? The answer, of course, is no. So they need to pay money to get the players they want, and they have to compete with other franchises to acquire these players. It's simple supply and demand and a market that causes these high salaries.

As for minimum wage being under $10, well if a person makes minimum wage, there are ways to improve their lifestyle and make more than that. Most Americans are too damned lazy to put in the work to succeed. They don't value making more money as being worth the cost of putting forth some effort. I see it all the time. I see it with people I went to school with on FB crying about it, I see it with family members, and it makes me want to puke.

If people don't like capitalism, then as I said, move to a country that is communist and see which you prefer then.

Also, can you please tell how much money is being paid in taxes by the huge corporations and the people who have 7+ figures of worth? Can you tell me what the rest of the country gives in taxes?

Finally, taxes are already set up that the more you make, the more the government takes. But making it even more severe would be simply awful. If I make more, but have to give so much more than the next guy, then what a person's incentive beput forth all the effort required to be a surgeon or an engineer, or anything like that? Why do all the work when that same person could simply be content to go be a cashier and give less money away to taxes? It promotes a culture of pure laziness.
RA  
2 Sep 2011 12:10 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
macandkanga says:
Don't get me wrong. It's not that I don't think people care. I don't think people REALLY care. If we did, we would REALLY do something about these things.


right there is why, to me, liberalism is dieing, while our two party system is going on and on with it nonsenses, we are becoming more and more authoritarian. I mean maybe I am just being cynical growing up in a seemingly soon to be horrible era, and John Adams view of a cylindrical struggle is right but it sucks to be on the *** end of it. and we are giving real credence to the view that the future of our free governance can only lead to despotism.
gshredder2112  
2 Sep 2011 12:18 | Quote
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
United States
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@case211 I was speaking about atheletes,musicians
and corperations. The American dream,not selling drugs,just
A legit way to make money,whats wrong with that?
BodomBeachTerror  
2 Sep 2011 13:04 | Quote
Joined: 27 May 2008
Canada
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I try to stay out of politics and stuff, but generally i'm drawn towards the more socialist side of things. I think it takes a ridiculous amount of arrogance and greed to think you should have the right to make millions of dollars while someone who grew up on the same street as you might go hungry and homeless. You say "Land of the free and the home of the brave." But it seems to me taking everything for yourself and leaving your brothers behind is something called cowardice, not bravery.
case211  
2 Sep 2011 13:30 | Quote
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
United States
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@BBT

I agree dude. The US is just so... strange. To me. There's just so much corruption here it's getting to the point of blowing up in everyones face(I hope anyways). But I guess we'll find out.

@Gshred

Corporations are probably pretty slimy and corrupt dude. Most will hide it well, but you'll get an Enron, which makes you think: how many other corporations are the same?
I don't think that a Corporation is a part of the American dream dude. More like a nightmare.
Plus I was making a joke.

Domigan_Lefty  
2 Sep 2011 14:23 | Quote
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
United States
Karma: 8
Anyone ever read George Orwells "1984"?
Well that's what we're coming to soon.
gshredder2112  
2 Sep 2011 14:45 | Quote
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
United States
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@Bbt I tottaly agree with that,you make sense.

So from what I read,The ideal America would be a socialist
One,where no one person can have more money than another,no large
corporations,no two parties? Is this right? or am I off?
case211  
2 Sep 2011 15:00 | Quote
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
United States
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I could deal with no large corporations actually. Well, I don't know that for sure, since I've never lived in a time where corporations don't exist.

@Dom

totally agree dude, out Govt. seems to want to be Big Brother.
DarkRiff  
2 Sep 2011 15:18 | Quote
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
United States
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BodomBeachTerror says:
I try to stay out of politics and stuff, but generally i'm drawn towards the more socialist side of things. I think it takes a ridiculous amount of arrogance and greed to think you should have the right to make millions of dollars while someone who grew up on the same street as you might go hungry and homeless. You say "Land of the free and the home of the brave." But it seems to me taking everything for yourself and leaving your brothers behind is something called cowardice, not bravery.


yea, Canadians get it.

and jesus christ who the f uck said I was a communist? There is a difference between communism and socialism (Which I'm consider my self somewhat socialist). And as for those saying the rich have a right to make as much money as they want. Where do you think they get the money? FROM YOUR POCKET, From their tax breaks from the government, from raising prices on their products, and from exporting jobs. And yea, like the conservatives aren't fascist. Sure they give Corporations and Big Business "freedom", But they just love to force their morals into legislation, and take away Americans personal freedoms.

@RA

yea, corporations are now considered people after the dumb ass supreme court said they were last year. I don't get why Big businesses pay practically nothing in taxes. TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS IS BULL$HIT! It doesn't work. At all.

@gshredder

I agree with you to an extent. I know I sound like I'm coming off as "we want to take all your money away" But I'm simply saying, The more you have, the more you have to give. And honestly I hate how much athletes are paid because of 3 reasons

1) they always ask for more
2) They don't care about the sport as much, they start to only do it for the money (and if you disagree with this go look at college football and compare pro, see who has more heart in the sport)
3) They live in their huge houses and give a small amount (Compared to what they make) to charity and think their a good person for doing it, while people who happen to be less fortunate, and I'm not talking about people who don't want to work, I'm talking about people who can't find a job because the majority of work in his field out there has been exported to india so a CEO could make another million bucks.

Look I don't care if a bunch of idiots are willing to pay 50$ a ticket for a dumb football game. But some of the money in the sports industry could go to a lot better use.

And @Btimm

I've heard people say "then what's the incentive" before. Don't you think that if a doctor's salary was lowered, the doctors that were just in it for the money would leave, and what you would be left with would be The Doctors That Actually Care. It would teach people not be so greedy and to choose a career that they actually love and not just for the money.

also, lets break down the word "Capitalism".

Capitalism - To Capitalize - To take advantage of.

Also this country wasn't founded on the thought of big business. Because back in the 18th to early 20th century, most business were small family businesses.

And lets get something straight, I don't want a country where all people make the same amount of money, I just want lower the differential in salaries.

I don't like our government now. These politicians lately are liar and are just looking to eliminate the middle class. I really don't know who to believe anymore. I just say what makes since to me.

Look I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm just sharing my opinion.

Plus if there is any grammar mistakes in this, my bad, It's a bit of a long post for me to go through.

EDIT

You know what I'd find fun. Take this political spectrum quiz, At post your results. I don't want to cause arguments, but a good debate can be healthy for some.

http://www.gotoquiz.com/politics/political-spectrum-quiz.html

and you know what case, I'm coming with you to Canada.
RA  
2 Sep 2011 18:02 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
all corporations always where and are consider people it is the very nature of the term. It comes form the root word "corpus" meaning body.

As for the court decision that is on money being used as freedom of speech so their is on limit on how they can use there money. It is the super PAC stuff Colbert goes on about.

on "1984" topic read Huxley's "Brave New World" that is the reality of the Untied States. And we are already here not coming too just like there is not perfect utopia there is no perfect dystopia

gshredder2112 says:
So from what I read,The ideal America would be a socialist One,where no one person can have more money than another,no large corporations,no two parties? Is this right? or am I off?



all socialism is, is that people should have a right to own their own labor.

there are liberal socialist and authoritarian socialist just like with capitalism. the liberal capitalists won out for a time with guys Like Locke, Smith, Rousseau, and in his own time Spinoza, but got put out. While is not quite talk about just like some socialists want(ed) to redistribute wealth some capitalists demand that all prior serfs get land. They where not all about "life, liberty, and the pursuit of property"

The complete egalitarian classless direct democratic society is Communism which I find to be quite silly.

the ideal American society was that of a liberal society base of the ideas That John Locke came up with and compounded.


as for calling people communist the red scare is over. I really hope someday people will stop using philosophical positions as four letter words.

also running to Canada wont solve anything everything is so global now that what affects one effects the others
case211  
2 Sep 2011 18:29 | Quote
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
United States
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good points dudes... but I'll still try to go to Canada, I hear "it" is basically legal up there(not legal, but not exactly enforced) haha
Plus I'd really like to someday live where they have more than 2 climates... Arizona sucks man haha

Unfortunately you are right though RA about the global situation... I wish it wasn't that way, but it's pretty scary with the way everything is going.
RA  
2 Sep 2011 21:37 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
seeing that I miss it my first read (or forget to type).

capitalism is an economic system where the citizens own capital as apposed to the king/lord(s) owning every thing. So for a farmer that mean owning your own land.

it clashes with socialism in that in industry under capitalism the factory is own by an individual. Socialist say you can't own someone else's labor.

so capitalism = means of production owned by individual

socialism = means of production owned by collective (each worker owns their own labor thus workers own factory)

again both can be statist or free market or wholly anarchistic to totalitarian (dictators tend to mess with things and stuff get all screwy)

please don't redefine words. it is part of the reason where in this mess.


as for political spectrum stuff it nice that you pick one that realizes the left and right thing is lacking or in reality down right silly, but they still come up short (philosophy is never that easy).

any who I'm always very far down on the liberal side wither I'm right or left depends on the questions. That one I was center right.


this one I was bottom left a bit behind Nader (also has good reading list)

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

me and my brother take them form time to time just to laugh at the questions and where they place us

I also would like hearing were people place if you have the time both are kind of long I wound only do one.
DarkRiff  
2 Sep 2011 21:45 | Quote
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
United States
Licks: 2
Karma: 12
Ralph Nader.....He's the man.

And on "Capitalism" I wasn't trying to give a proper definition, it was more of an "observational break down of the word". What I mean is that the rich CEOs tend to take advantage of those desperate for work, and give them poor working conditions and pay in a capitalistic society.
It's just my observation from personal experience.

EDIT

on that quiz I got
Left 6
Libertarian 3.38

I was pretty much where they put Ghandi and Mandela.
tinyskateboard  
2 Sep 2011 21:57 | Quote
Joined: 28 Apr 2010
United States
Karma: 11
Is someone saying Americans had a better standard of living 200 years ago? I think we are a lot more level-headed and less racist then we used to be. People get scurvy a lot less. It's easier to get good nutrition.

And hockey season is almost back! I'll be buying some overpriced tickets soon, which helps give the workers at the rink a steady job.
DarkRiff  
2 Sep 2011 22:01 | Quote
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
United States
Licks: 2
Karma: 12
If you feel your paying the workers then, hey so be it.
I feel that I'm paying the players more-less though.

Hockey players don't bug me as much as Basketball, Football, and Baseball players do though.

And I don't know If I implied that the standard of living was better 200 years ago. If I did I take it back. All I was saying was There were more small business and less greed 200 years ago.
RA  
2 Sep 2011 22:23 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
I get you. but understand what happens when you do that you make capitalism into a dirty word and that is horrible. Capitalism is a philosophical economic position no more right than it is wrong just an idea.

if you have an issues state why in a logical argument. I too have an issue with corporatist state controlled Capitalism, but saying capitalist means to take advantage of thus capitalism is evil is not a debate it hinders debate, and turns capitalism into a four letter word. Not to mention, not at all what capitalism is all about. Hell without it we would still be owned by kings (we can make comparisons but the point is still true).

That my not be what you mean but understand that is what will happen, and it is what has happened.

DarkRiff  
2 Sep 2011 22:28 | Quote
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
United States
Licks: 2
Karma: 12
You're Right (I don't say that often) RA, I misused the word. But capitalism has become corrupt. I feel that we could use more socialism (not fascism).

I Think that a country should be like this

People/Small Business ≥ Government > Big Business/Corporations.
RA  
2 Sep 2011 23:17 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
I think we just need more liberalism. I'm not anarchist by any means if anyone's getting those vibes. In the end socialism and capitalism are pretty close in what there arguing for and depending on the economic situation one works better then I other and can exist together.

In what a country should be like it is this:

People.

big government goes hand and hand with big business one makes the other.

as for what government should be, read John Locke. he is a bit dense but not as bad as philosophers come.

but yeah we heading toward a fascist state all right.

this isn't a political endorsement as I'm only talking about theoretical political philosophy, but to show my point, Ron Paul is a pretty hardcore liberal Capitalist almost archo-capitalist at times but listen to this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21fi6mYjhKI&feature=related

while he most likely doesn't understand socialism fully (he grew up in the red scare you can't blame people, Huac and McCarthyism where nuts). He underlines my point in a liberal society people will figure out what is best for them.

and if any questions on my blatant refusal to use libertarian. I'm a hard determinist not a libertarian look it up.

While I'm all for words having many meanings and hate the literalism that words are becoming to the point where it is almost Orwellian Philosophy is a science just like math, chemistry, or biology. And just like scientists hate people using words in odd ways (think sci-fiction to physicist) Philosophers do to.

not that I think I'm a philosopher, but I do consider myself a learning student of it.
gshredder2112  
3 Sep 2011 00:24 | Quote
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
United States
Licks: 3
Karma: 22
This is getting pretty intense guys,Ive enjoyed reading it.
*Disclaimer-Gshredder does not know $hit from shineola,His
opinions are are loosely based observations and sketchy facts
so.please dont hold his ignorance against him*

I blame the downfall of America on the the Republicans,This
country was founded on a democracy,which seemed to work
fairly well,from browsing history books.

If we think,America has only been around for what 200yrs?
Plenty of countrys throughout time have have come and gone
what makes america so special to be the last one? Dominance
has shifted throughout time ALOT so when China decides too
invade and collect there debt,Or we have a civil war started by all
the less fortunate citizens who are sick.of government coruptness,there will be a change,and it will be soon.
DanielM  
3 Sep 2011 03:10 | Quote
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
United Kingdom
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
In England we have 3 main parties (and then a hell of a lot of parties that will thankfully never get near power) and leaning wise they go left, centre, right but our right wing is still slightly left of your democrats.

One political opinion in England if we use our perspective on what's left, right and centre as the correct one is that american's don't actually have a proper left wing party (be it socialist or liberal).

However I believe government and business should be kept separate and business should be owned by the individual because (real life example here) our health service we have free and paid health service.

To get a hip transplant on the free government provided health service actually costs 3 times more than the privately owned health service (and the privately owned one turns over a greater profit). That's because the nhs (the free one) is an incredibly bloated entity and wrapped in so much bureaucracy that decisions often end up being very money inefficient. There's also so many roles in it that simply aren't needed but the government won't get rid of because of not wanting to fight the incredibly liberal/socialist trade unions.

Our free health service has got to the point where I know of doctors working for it that think it could stand to receive less money from the government to force it to streamline. That's because right now privately owned health care has less expenditure on patients, treats them faster and to a higher quality and makes more money out of it.

TBH pretty much every state owned business in the UK if you look closely is an utter joke. In Ireland they have state owned gas and electric (which we don't) and they actually lost all water access during the last winter while in England ours kept going (ours which has been privately owned for many decades).

Capitalism isn't the best system but it works best for everyone as a whole.

Also if you had a capitalist meritocracy then the ones getting the most money would be getting it because of their own merit, better you are at your job better you get paid which is only fair in my eyes, and also could still work within a welfare state.
RA  
3 Sep 2011 08:34 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
gshredder2112 says:
I blame the downfall of America on the the Republicans,This country was founded on a democracy,which seemed to work fairly well,from browsing history books.


it not just the dems or the reps there both equally to blame. There really the same thing in the end (where it matters).

also USA was never a democracy We always were (some may say eroding now) a constitutional REPUBLIC. Most of the founding fathers disproved of democracy (notable exception would be Thomas Pain). It not even a real argument as the "articles of confederation" are more democratic (still not democracy) then the "Constitution".

not no argument for democracy, just there no argument that what the constitution is, is a Republic. Democratic yes but democracy No.

democracy become a political catch phase for politicians. There no real meaning behind it when they use it (at less are far as what the word means).


@daniel socialism does not mean statist. while it is true that modern popular socialists are statist so are most modern capitalist, and in that there are many that stand for free trade.
DarkRiff  
3 Sep 2011 12:37 | Quote
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
United States
Licks: 2
Karma: 12
@RA

Sorry but I'll never vote for Ron Paul. While I agree with his views of personal freedom, I am completely against his stand on education, healthcare, and corporations. He's just gonna let the big wigs run all over the working class American. He's never gonna get my vote.

And sorry to those who disagree but IMO Healthcare is right. Education should be provided by the government and anyone else who can open a accredited school. I don't necessarily believe in universal healthcare, but I do think the government should have a cheaper healthcare plan for the less fortunate.

And obviously capitalism isn't the best system and isn't good for everyone. America has always been capitalist and well llook where it's got us.
RA  
3 Sep 2011 18:15 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
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RA says:
this isn't a political endorsement as I'm only talking about theoretical political philosophy,


@dark I was never asking you too. I was just trying to establish what liberalism really is, and that is what we need.


we need to decide if people are naturally good and left to their own means will make good choices for society.

or like Hobbes in that left to themselves people would just fight each other and life would be "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"

should we keep the Constitution which is based on Life and liberty and the pursuit of ....

or should be throw it away and embrace the Party (fascism)

case211 says:
It seems like they are slowly sweeping the Constitution under the rug as well, which they may not be, I hope not anyways, but that would be rough on everyone if it were to happen.
I don't know guys, but America's future looks a bit bleak from here.


this is what is happening and their getting rid of it; right, left, and the sea people too.

don't think that people don't welcome fascism or that fascism is evil.

In the "Brave new world" most people liked the society there was no war and people generally got along. The Savage's mother was ecstatic when she was put back on soma. However, like "1984" if you disagreed with the party they killed you. Unlike Orwell, Huxley wrote it as You either got to kill yourself (Savage) or you got sent to island (Bernard & Watson) not as fun as it sounds.

the issues is in a fascist world you have to submit to the party. you don't have free thought, you can't listen to the music you like, you can't read what you'd like.

I'll die. it's between hell and high water before you can take my bible, my Shakespeare, or my Dostoevsky. Nor do I want to force my views own you. be it economic, moral, religious, what ever.

government should be there to protect our life and liberty not used as a tool to beat people into line. Be it a club for corporations, Unions, activists, religious groups, or whatever.


this is our reality

macandkanga says:
The raids on Gibson Guitar's facilities became politicized following Juszkiewicz criticism of the federal government, when right-wing bloggers using OpenSecrets.org concluded that the raids and investigation were politically motivated since Juszkiewicz donated more to Republicans during the previous election season, whereas the C.E.O. of Gibson Guitar's competitor, C.F. Martin & Company supported Democratic candidates, yet his company was not raided despite also reportedly using the same wood.

Left-wing bloggers later criticized these accusations, while also noting an inconsistency in Gibson Guitar's press release. They pointed out that following the 2009 raid, Juszkiewicz began working with the Rainforest Alliance on developing a new wood sourcing plan—suggesting they were acknowledging a problem with the source of their wood—but following the 2011 raid, Juszkiewicz claimed to have sworn statements and documents from the Madagascar government proving the wood was legal.



And on health care it's funny but Ron Paul (minus the anarchy part of him) would actually support universal healthcare provided is still provided privately as Nader supports, but the anarchist in him states that the federal government is incapably of doing so without corruption. as social security; shows in that, the government depleted the trust fund thus stealing I forget but around 2.4 trillion (actually more as the tax payer has to pay back the I.O.U.s), and he hates corporations as do all Anarcho-capitalists (Rothbard).

that being said I would not vote for him. Also our medical issues have more to do with the pharmaceutical companies.


but that's all I'll say about him as I don't want to promote any candidate nor any position Beyond a liberal mode of authority. I just want people to start thinking philosophically and get rid of these talking points the media crams down our throats. I want people to read (why I'm dropping names not out of my own arrogance) philosophy not Oprah's Picks or "world war Z" or any other silly social commentary. read the real stuff the ones that came up with our social organization. And by all means stop listening to the major networks for your views on things they are all major corporations.

were fast approaching the time when where going to have to define what it is to be an American and what it is America stands for; I just want people to be ready. I used to not talk about politics (especially on a guitar forum) out side of philosophical debates with people I knew would know what I'm talking about as I refuse to subsidize myself and get annoyed easily on redefining, but as most people my age (I would assume) I becoming really worried that I wont have a good future at all.


DarkRiff says:
America has always been capitalist and well look where it's got us.


I don't know being one of the freest nations to have ever existed doesn't sound so bad to me. I actually like the liberal experiment that is the USA even if in the end it turns into a despotism.
gshredder2112  
3 Sep 2011 18:51 | Quote
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
United States
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Karma: 22
I think the world would do well with a liberal barter system.
It would inspire craftsmanship,compassion,and trust.

It would still give doctors,lawyers,etc incentive too
want to improve,because the better quality there
health care,the better stuff they could barter for.

Just throwin out my world peace hippie co-op
views haa
DarkRiff  
3 Sep 2011 20:14 | Quote
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
United States
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@RA

yes, we are one of the freest counties in the world. But Capitalism is beginning to fail because of one thing. Greed. Adam Smith didn't take that into factor. In fact Smith was for the rich getting richer and poor poorer. That's shown by his various quotes. Look 'em up

Like I keep saying, I am all for personal freedoms, But I will not support any politician who is for helping the rich. This Bull$hit trickle down economics doesn't work. The Rich have enough. In fact too much. I hate the fact that the top 10% of Americans own 90% of all the wealth. They take the American People's money and pay out of country employees extremely cheap, so what's left....A huge paycheck for them, and more Americans without jobs and less money. Plus, "Made in USA" use to mean something. Now it just means the same stuff for a higher price than "Made in China" stuff.
I'm not a religious person at all, but at least religion use to keep people from being so greedy. Now some of the greediest people are "religious" people.
DanielM  
4 Sep 2011 02:25 | Quote
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
United Kingdom
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
Religions used to keep people from being greedy only because they took their money from them, getting people to exchange money for holy relics or a place in heaven or favour with the pope.

Why else would one of the Borgias have been inspiration to Machiavelli's the prince.
DarkRiff  
4 Sep 2011 09:07 | Quote
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
United States
Licks: 2
Karma: 12
Can't argue with that Daniel.
case211  
4 Sep 2011 12:35 | Quote
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
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RA says:
Also our medical issues have more to do with the pharmaceutical companies.


Agreed. It seems that most drug companies try to make things more addicting so they can keep selling the pills to keep making money.
I think that if pot were legalized here for recreational purposes, a lot of companies that rely on people buying their pills would see a massive fall in sales. No super addictive pain pills, no relying on them for getting through the day, more fun at concerts(hehe). I mean it has so many uses in the medical realm it's starting to get a little annoying that they keep fighting it off. You can argue it is a drug, but so are Vicodin, and Oxycontin, and you can get addicted to those ***s. If you think about it, Cannabis is a plant--you grow it, dry out the buds it produces, and boom--you're good. Just like growing an orange tree or a vegetable garden. Whereas I can't even begin to think about the $hit that goes into making a pain pill.
Waaaaaaay off topic but that's just my take on the pharmaceutical companies and how if it were legal they would not have nearly as much business, which I view as a positive thing since I'd rather not have people risking addiction to their meds.
Just my opinion on that...


I would hope that Obama or whoever is next will at least make the people who make millions of dollars per year pay more in taxes percentage wise than say my dad, who makes $30k a year. I mean, they've already got millions of dollars, what's the big deal of not being able to buy yet another Lamborghini or Ferrari. It just seems greedy to sit back and feel like your being wronged because you have to pay more taxes than the postman who delivers your mail even though you might have made $3 million last year, while he makes probably around $30k per year. Just my view on that.

Lots of good posts here guys, glad you have an awareness of things going on :)
DarkRiff  
4 Sep 2011 13:43 | Quote
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
United States
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case211 says:
I would hope that Obama or whoever is next will at least make the people who make millions of dollars per year pay more in taxes percentage wise than say my dad, who makes $30k a year. I mean, they've already got millions of dollars, what's the big deal of not being able to buy yet another Lamborghini or Ferrari. It just seems greedy to sit back and feel like your being wronged because you have to pay more taxes than the postman who delivers your mail even though you might have made $3 million last year, while he makes probably around $30k per year. Just my view on that.


This is what I've been saying!


And while I don't smoke it, I do believe they should legalize weed. There would be numerous benefits from the legalization of it.
btimm  
4 Sep 2011 19:02 | Quote
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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BodomBeachTerror says:
I try to stay out of politics and stuff, but generally i'm drawn towards the more socialist side of things. I think it takes a ridiculous amount of arrogance and greed to think you should have the right to make millions of dollars while someone who grew up on the same street as you might go hungry and homeless. You say "Land of the free and the home of the brave." But it seems to me taking everything for yourself and leaving your brothers behind is something called cowardice, not bravery.


It is all about supply and demand. If a person has a possession that is very rare and in high demand, they absolutely should have the right to capitalize on it. It has nothing to do with the homeless or hungry. Why should a person give to someone less fortunate when I see time and time again that the less fortunate don't work hard enough to improve their situation? I am sorry, I could not disagree with you more. I see things in people I went to high school with or even some family, where they get all of their tax money back and get government assistance as well. Fact is that the poor don't pay jack *** in taxes and I wish people had references to back up bogus claims about the poor.
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