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Theory question.

Music Theory
gshredder2112  
27 Jun 2011 19:58 | Quote
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Ok,so im wondering about this chord i came up with.
Its built from the cMaj scale,C-d-e-f-g-a-b

First started as a cmaj7 chord 1-3-5-7.


E---
B-0-
G-0-
D-2-
A-3-
E---
but the melody I
was writing(from the harmonic minor scale) called for
a Cmaj7#5. 1-3-#5-7


E---
B-0-
G-1-
D-2-
A-3-
E---
But i decided that the chord tones need
to be altered more(for the sake of the songs sound)
so i suspended the third,or sharped it,making it the 4th of cmaj(F)
creating this.1-#3-#5-7 or 1-4-#5-7 or 1-#5-7-11(no 3rd)


E--
B--0
G--1
D--3
A--3
E--

Anyway,i was wondering i any of you guys had a clue what to call this chord. Cmaj7#5sus2? Cmaj7#5sus4? cmaj7#5add11(no 3rd)?Or did i alter so much,its not even in the cmaj7 chord area anymore,your thoughts?

M/(*-+)
gs2112
DanielM  
28 Jun 2011 01:27 | Quote
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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Hmmm... Well Cmaj7#5sus4 is the most but...

If you ignore the C you have F half diminished, but C is the 7th of F

So it could be an Fmb5/C.

Really I think at this point we're just arguing semantics it all depends on its functionality in the piece but I would probably say it's one of those two.
Guitarslinger124  
28 Jun 2011 04:35 | Quote
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DanielM says:
So it could be an Fmb5/C.


I agree with the Fmb5. Something got me on G#maj, but I just flipped the switch to minor.

DanielM says:
Really I think at this point we're just arguing semantics it all depends on its functionality in the piece but I would probably say it's one of those two.


+1 Really, it can be whatever you want it to be.

Although, I have to add, if you intend on sticking with your intial Cmaj sound, Fm wouldn't quite fit either. F is the IV chord here, which would make it major, not minor. Anyhoo, try Fmaj7? Might with all them other 7th chords you got.

Rock on!
gshredder2112  
28 Jun 2011 15:18 | Quote
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The progreesion is a II-V-I built from the harmonized a A harmonic minor scale,the original progression was Cmaj#5,AMAJmin7,E7.
But i decide to add a bit of tension but suspenidin the third of
The cmaj7#5.making Cmaj7#5sus4.The suspended note(F)is the 6th of
A HArmonic minor,so i was thinking that I could still play the
A harmonic minor scale over the II(Cmaj7#5sus4) chord becuase the
chord contains scale tones that appear in A harmonic minor.Does that sound correct,or am I missing something.here?

M/(*-+)
gs2112
coleman  
28 Jun 2011 17:18 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
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i think in the context i would call it c maj7 #5 sus 4 but it could also be an Ab6/9. in a ii V i it would be some sort of b dim it has the b5 and the bb7 with no 3rd and a b2. idk it could be alot of things.
gshredder2112  
28 Jun 2011 17:26 | Quote
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I shall dub it Cmaj7#5sus4,considering that C is my bass note.
Guitarslinger124  
29 Jun 2011 02:20 | Quote
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gshredder2112 says:
The progreesion is a II-V-I built from the harmonized a A harmonic minor scale,the original progression was Cmaj#5,AMAJmin7,E7.
But i decide to add a bit of tension but suspenidin the third of
The cmaj7#5.making Cmaj7#5sus4.The suspended note(F)is the 6th of
A HArmonic minor,so i was thinking that I could still play the
A harmonic minor scale over the II(Cmaj7#5sus4) chord becuase the
chord contains scale tones that appear in A harmonic minor.Does that sound correct,or am I missing something.here?


You are thinking too deep into man. If it sounds good play it. If you need an answer to that question, then you are taking away from your music.

Not quite sure how you to A Harmonic Minor with the approach you are taking either. The "II", is actually a "ii" chord and it's not going to be Major. In fact, it's B diminished. I can see how you could throw in a C maj, because the i chord is simply Am.

On another note, no pun intended, your "Cmaj7#5sus4" chord could be just an augmented Cmaj[7sus4] beacuse of the sharped 5th. Kind of wacky, but whatever floats your boat.

gshredder2112 says:
AMAJmin7


Typo?

Rock on!
gshredder2112  
29 Jun 2011 11:09 | Quote
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Ahhh your right,i got confused,the typo was,that Cmaj7 was the III ( i forgot an I). And Amin(maj)7 is a legit chord.1-b3-5-7( but i wrote it backwards up there >_<

And i guess I am getting a bit deep,I was just getting opinions.

\M/(*-+)
gs2112
Guitarslinger124  
30 Jun 2011 03:22 | Quote
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gshredder2112 says:
Ahhh your right,i got confused,the typo was,that Cmaj7 was the III ( i forgot an I).


I see now. If you want to stick with your "deep" theory, Cmaj7 still isn't the III. Only your augmented Cmaj7[sus4] will fit. And even that is a stretch.

Cm7 is the iii of G#maj.
Cmaj is the III of A minor.
Caugemented is the III of A harmonic minor.


gshredder2112 says:
Amin(maj)7 is a legit chord.1-b3-5-7( but i wrote it backwards up there >_


I never said it wasn't.

Rock on!
gshredder2112  
30 Jun 2011 12:53 | Quote
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Again,i get confused. I apolgize for all this bs gs. Allow me to rephrase my question one final time.

Would Cmaj7#5sus4 be a valid substitute for Cmaj#5 In a 3-5-1 in
A harmonic minor?
Guitarslinger124  
30 Jun 2011 14:42 | Quote
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Yes and no. The simple answer: yes, it can be whatever you want it to be.

The other simple answer: No, it fits F melodic minor.

I'll give a more in depth answer later, as I am trying to rush to watch Little Focker or whatever it's called with my wife.


Rock on!
Ozzfan486  
30 Jun 2011 17:59 | Quote
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Guitarslinger124 says:
No, it fits F melodic minor.

I'll give a more in depth answer later, as I am trying to rush to watch Little Focker or whatever it's called with my wife.


That's like the Superman of guitar knowledge.
case211  
30 Jun 2011 18:05 | Quote
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He IS the Superman of guitar knowledge haha
Guitarslinger124  
1 Jul 2011 03:29 | Quote
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gshredder2112 says:
Would Cmaj7#5sus4 be a valid substitute for Cmaj#5 In a 3-5-1 in A harmonic minor?



case211 says:
He IS the Superman of guitar knowledge haha


Well, so much for superman hehe. I left out my major in my rush last night. What I meant was, C7#5sus4 is F Melodic minor. My bad.

The real answer.

It's much more simple than you led it on to be, and I had initially thought as much. Anyhow, you ever heard of "relative minors"?

Great. Nothing to do with it!

Let's break this down:




Step 1:

Cmaj = C E G
Cmaj7 = C E G B
Cma7#5 = C E G# B
Cmaj7#5sus = C E F G# B



Step 2:

A Harmonic Minor = flat 3rd and flat 6th

Let's knock that flat sixth outta the way first. G#. Done.

You should already know where the flat 3rd comes from.

But lets look at it this way:





A Major - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

A Harmonic Minor - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7





A Major - A B C# D E G# F#
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

A Harmonic Minor - A B C D E F G#
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7




The Yes answer: Since your Cmaj7#5sus4 and A Harmonic Minor are harmincally equivalent, you can (and I stress that this is context providing) subsitute one for the other.

The No answer: And this is just my opinion, for what's it's worth, Harmonic Minor doesn't fit well over major. Just as with playing different modes in the same key (which contain the same notes) one will almost always sound better than another.

Hope that helped and I am sorry about the confusion.

Rock on!
gshredder2112  
1 Jul 2011 03:43 | Quote
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Wow,that is a pretty epic answer.,thanks dude! And ill take that into consideration!

\M/(*-+)
gs2112
coleman  
2 Jul 2011 04:41 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
United States
Karma: 8
it's not a sub it works as a funtioning III chord. also harmonic minor isn't a key or really a tonal boundery the only thing that i ever even think of it is for a major V chord or if by some weird turn of events i find myself on a minmaj chord.

i don't think trying to understand music is taking away from it. i feel it only helps you become more creative, especially because theory just makes a box to break the box ya know.


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