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Insight into Polyrythems: Konnakol, Govan

Technique
harleyofdoom  
22 Mar 2011 00:54 | Quote
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in this video mr Guthrie Govan mentions Konnakol (the vocal representation of a certain type of Indian drum) i thought this was a pretty interesting yet obscure "sonic reference point" so i looked it up...>



i just think its a nice avenue to look into if you want to expand on organic movement through varying time signatures.
AlexB  
22 Mar 2011 02:02 | Quote
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if you want Polyrithms,Mesuggah/Periphery/Bulb is a good place to start

nice vids!
gshredder2112  
22 Mar 2011 02:08 | Quote
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di meola,slayer,alot of funk,all funk
RA  
22 Mar 2011 19:05 | Quote
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I just want to point out odd rhythms are not Poly-rhythmic.

Indian classical music is not poly-rhythmic in it's nature but they do have very complex poly-rhythmic structures or should I say cycles (very into cycles). What he is really trying to get you to do is understand Additive rhythm vs divisive rhythm. Western music largely follows into divisive rhythm. For example, you have a time and you divide it. Divide into fourths, seconds, and thirds. have each beat be a quarter you got 4/4, 2/4 , 3/4. Additive rhythm 4/4 would be 2 quarters + 2 quarters. why not do 2 + 3 quarters 5/4 (listen to "Take Five"). As you should see you can get very complex rhythms from it which would be hard to conceptualize with divisive rhythm but not imposable (almost certain Desmond was thinking, divisive when writing "Take Five"). This is just a intro, hopefully it interests you to learn more, very interesting stuff rhythm is and very often understudied.

poly-rhythms are more seen in west African music and American classical (most modern and contemporary composers do them think "rite of spring"). You actually have to have two different time Sigs going on, not just odd or lopsided.

sorry but, funk is almost universally in strict 4/4, but has a lot syncopation. However syncopation is not always poly-rhythmic and in fact most times you'll actually find not.

but I really need to start listening to Govan I really feel that I'm missing out on something but i just haven't the time.
case211  
22 Mar 2011 20:00 | Quote
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never heard a Slayer song using polyrhythms...

I know that Dream Theater has done a few songs that use polyrhythms, pretty cool sounding stuff. Don't know the names of them or even the albums they are on(if more than one) but they were awesome to hear.
gshredder2112  
22 Mar 2011 20:10 | Quote
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hmm@ra your probably right,i was speaking or horns and such.

@case slayer drummer uses kick drum.polyrhytms.
Ozzfan486  
22 Mar 2011 21:47 | Quote
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I like trying to tap out poly rhythms on the desks at school when the teacher is boring. It's pretty fun until someone notices, then you get some odd looks. o_o
case211  
22 Mar 2011 23:53 | Quote
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so Dave Lombardo is doing something completely different with the kick than the initial rhythm? I've honestly never heard that with listening to Slayer. Sounds like straight double bass stuff to me. Any songs in particular that use the DB polyrhythmic approach with Slayer?
gshredder2112  
23 Mar 2011 00:05 | Quote
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o@case raning blood,its not all.polyrhythms,it just does during the first break,and somtime latter in the song,but i dnt have such a good memeory of slayer bcuz i havnt listend in a while,so srry but yea raining blood is a good example,you ya got the kick goin in triplets andnthe guitar goin in 32nds,if im.not mistaken.
case211  
23 Mar 2011 02:21 | Quote
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nope, they're both going in 8 triplets I think at around 210 BPM and the drums are doing straight double bass.
A polyrhythm is when one instrument does one time sig(say 4/4) while another, lets say the drums, is doing a different time signature(like 5/4). They're playing two different time signatures at the same time, which is what a polyrhythm consists of. They sync back up every 20 beats with the given time signature.
I know that DT dabbles with that stuff quite a bit, and while I would like to try my hand at it(now that I know what it is exactly) I am not sure I would be able to do it without staying in time with the drums XD haha
nullnaught  
23 Mar 2011 06:05 | Quote
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Whats the difference between polyrythems and counterpoint?
harleyofdoom  
23 Mar 2011 12:46 | Quote
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explanation of counterpoints

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/07/22/arts/1247468479041/counterpoint.html
tinyskateboard  
23 Mar 2011 14:12 | Quote
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I'm really bad at discerning time signatures (so I can't say exactly what is going on here polyrhythically), but try this for for fun:

GuitarJoe  
23 Mar 2011 16:21 | Quote
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@Case, what you described is a polymeter (two different time signatures at once). Polyrythm would be a drummer doing triplets with his feet and straight sixteenths with his hands
case211  
23 Mar 2011 18:45 | Quote
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oh okay, I just looked up Polyrhythm on google and that's what the definition that I was given said.
Well that takes away some of the mystique of a polyrhythm for me :( I thought it was more XD haha
RA  
25 Mar 2011 14:06 | Quote
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Ok, so that me reiterate, as people seem more interested in poly-rhythm than my point and I not sure if it got across.

Guthrie Govan is talking about additive rhythm not poly-rhythms. While it does have poly-rhythmic overtones that is not the point.

Also like to add, he other vids are great and highly recommend. That comes across as arrogant, but it is not. I'm not claiming his is right as the holy god, it is more that he has proved me to not be insane and well on the right track. That and Ted Greene kick's ass buy his books they do you well (in all honesty I bet Govan read them).

Then for the slayer case211 is right.

nullnaught says:
Whats the difference between polyrythems and counterpoint?


counterpoint is two different melodies play against one other. Poly-rhythms are two different rhythms played against each other. Counterpoint is 99% (i can't think if any but there is no reason why not) of the time in very simple rhythms 4/4 or 3/4 basically. Seeing that it became the height of western music (arguably) it's the reason for western music having simply rhythms (historically and traditional not the case). I guess you could view it as "counter-rhythm" but it's just not what it's called for whatever reason or poly-melody (actually I know why it just meaningless).

add to that, Harley's view is a good one check it out if you haven't.


@ "Afro Bule" in case any one counted it and got confused like me (wasn't familiar with the tune; heard of it, never played it nor really listened) and counted 3/4 listen to the bass. It is hard to really hear on this recording so look up other versions but the bass makes it a 3 against 2.

GuitarJoe says:
@Case, what you described is a polymeter (two different time signatures at once). Polyrythm would be a drummer doing triplets with his feet and straight sixteenths with his hands


your arguing semantics. Poly-meter is Poly-rhythm. There not synonymous mind you (in a way, think like Key and Key signature). To be poly-rhythmic you have to have two different rhythms. So just like counterpoint, you have two melodies but they can't be Homophony they have to be polyphony. Meaning that can't be on the same beats(rhythm). But just because you a write ploy-rhythms in one key signature doesn't mean I can't write it in two. That's take for instance your example. You got one beat divide by 4 and other by 3 in the time sig of 4/4. Provide that they are evenly space(tempo is very important with poly-rhythms) and we make that one beat our measure; his hands are in 4/4 while his feet are in 3/4.

which brings my next point. Just because your playing two different rhythms, your not necessarily playing poly-rhythms the tempo is very important. In fact if you speed up or slow down you move in and out.

an example of that is steve reich's "Clapping Music." It's a phase or Cannon (samething). This is a visual representation of what is going on and should show you the range of what I'm talking about. There are two rhythms; the rhythm is (3+2+1+2) he didn't write a time sig as it would be confusing (just like polytonality music) but you could write it is as 8/12



forgot to add, if you can't tell it doesn't start poly-rhythmic

RA  
25 Mar 2011 18:45 | Quote
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Ok so, after racking my brain around this Poly-rhythm vs Poly-meter stuff. it turns out I really don't get poly-meter all that well and the internet is full of lies on this subject (more than usually), and like all things dealing with music theory it's a nomenclature hell hole.

things I have been able to solidify are,

Tempo is a major factor.

and both can be written in two time signatures (meter has to be).

also poly-rhythm resolves at each measure while ploy-meter doesn't (my metronome helped me hear it as I always was resolving)

ending conclusions ploy-meter is a **, and I only get ploy-rhythm. so if anyone get its and is willing to explain I'm all ears.

the best I can come up with is poly-rhythm is at different tempo and ploy-meter the same


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:4_o_4_with_3_o_4_simultaneously_-_polyrhythm_3D.theora.ogv

as you can see the 3/4 is slower than the 4/4.


for ploy-meter i did it on my metronome and hands


*edit* don't dismiss "clapping music" as a simple but interesting a idea (like I did). it's as complicated as hell and the source of my recent brain hemorrhaging. the world is so nice in 3/4 4/4 2/2 2/4.
AlexB  
25 Mar 2011 20:25 | Quote
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2:00

There guitar on the left is on 4/4,while the one in the right is displaced

the drums are first accompaining the guitar in the right,after that,it follows the one in the left

hope with you you can understand how both things work
RA  
25 Mar 2011 23:37 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
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yeah I get poly-rhythms it's the poly-meter that got to me. When Guitarjoe said it, I thought it was some short of nomenclature nonsense that music theory is famous for, but upon deeper research I found them to really be two different things. so:

RA says:
your arguing semantics. Poly-meter is Poly-rhythm. There not synonymous mind you (in a way, think like Key and Key signature).


is wrong. But in a funny way (purely by chance) there is some truth to it in that after the cycle is complete there is a ploy-rhythmic structure inside the poly-meter.

so for me 3/4 over 4/4 was a 3:4 it never dawned on me to NOT have the two rhythms start at each measure and BE at the same tempo. I always resolved them.


@alex the example you gave is poly-meter, and during my night research into ploy-meters the band Mesuggah is all over the place, and it seems they are more ploy-meter than ploy-rhythmic (all the samples I listen too where meter, but again There is no way I could know their catalog at this point nor do i pretend too). In fact the whole "math rock" thing favors meter.


some videos that helped me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn7YtjO6Mqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtG38gVUxCs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfk6gI0gYWE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgAx49SaQr8&feature=related



personal I didn't start to get it(difference) I until a work it out on my metronome.

Poly-meter play: a 3/4 at 100 bpm and a 4/4 @ 100 bpm

Poly-rhythm: a 3/4 @ 37 bpm and 4/4 @ 50 bpm


I'd like to add, in no way I'm an expert, I don't pretend to be, and welcome an open discussion.
GuitarJoe  
26 Mar 2011 18:01 | Quote
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Hey man, no worries, I'm glad we can have this discussion. The way i understand it, a poly meter with 4/4 and 3/4 is on the same beat, but like you said doesn't resolve in one measure. In this example it would resolve on the 12th. Meshuggah is a great example, although the band claims to play strictly in 4/4 with HEAVY syncopation, though thats a little hard to believe when you listen to them, the only thing that sounds 4/4 is the cymbals. And my previous post was the extent of my knowledge on poly rhythm lol


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