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Relationships between Modes and Scales

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caiothegreat  
4 Jan 2011 20:33 | Quote
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Karma
Hey everyone, I am relatively new to learning music theory. I have learned pretty much the basic pattern of the Ionian Major Scale, so I tried to move on to Dorian scales. The only problem is I don't really see any connections between the Dorian scale and the Ionian scale. The only relationship I see is the relationship between Dorian in D is the same as Ionian C. Can someone please help explain how Dorian and Ionian scales relate, maybe by explaining roots and things like that?
ChicagoMedic  
4 Jan 2011 21:09 | Quote
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
United States
Karma: 7
the dorian mode is the same notes as the ionian just using the 2nd note of the scale as a begining and ending point.....


so if you map out the notes of the ionian mode, they will be the same notes as the dorian mode...

C Ionian
D Dorian

i.e
C Ionian= C D E F G A B C
D Dorian= D E F G A B C D

Now, playing "modally" involves stressing the root note of the mode (in the case of D Dorian, that is D) but still using the notes of the C Major scale...I find this hard to do sometimes....

A cool way i do it is to pedal the low E string and play the e phrygian mode....gives a nice flavor


I'm n expert I'm sure others can elaborate more
RA  
4 Jan 2011 22:58 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
first, all modes are scales.

second, not all scales are modes and in that have even have one mode (whole-tone scale has no modes)

third, There is Five proper 7-note scales in 12-tone equal temperament. Meaning, here at lest, that they all have modes and are their own "set" so to speak. They are Diatonic Major, Melodic minor, Harmonic minor, Harmonic major, and Major Locrian. (there are other scales which have as many notes as modes, but they are not notable in western music, besides double harmonic [at lest in modern music, I have yet to see someone use a mode of that scale through], not that some of these scales are used that often [Major Locrian])

That being, only worry about Diatonic Major, don't go on until you fully understand this scale and all it modes.

Diatonic Major
Ionian - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Dorian - 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7
Phygrian - 1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Lydian - 1,2,3,#4,5,6,7
Mixoldyin - 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Aeolian - 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Locrian - 1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7

so to answer you question...

as stated above the step/intervals of the two scales are different thus making them Different scales. yet when you have C Ionian the 1 is C, the 2 is D, the 3 is E and so on. Then when you have D Dorian the 1 is D, the 2 is E, the b3 is f, and so on.

what you get is.....

ChicagoMedic says:
C Ionian= C D E F G A B C
D Dorian= D E F G A B C D


as you can see they share the same notes/tones therefore they are modes of each other.

maybe you can think of modes like a transformer, when you have a set amount of parts and you can transformer them into car mode or fighting mode and such. Just drop the transforming part and keep in mind the the modes are a set and are intimately contented you got modes and scales.


also I can no more strongly recommend what medic said here

ChicagoMedic says:
Now, playing "modally" involves stressing the root note of the mode (in the case of D Dorian, that is D)

A cool way i do it is to pedal the low E string and play the e phrygian mode....gives a nice flavor



however I add, do the base pedal in different keys and modes. I find the best method to "get" a mode and modes in general is this approach.
Admiral  
5 Jan 2011 02:56 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
RA says:
maybe you can think of modes like a transformer, when you have a set amount of parts and you can transformer them into car mode or fighting mode and such...


never looked at it that way :D

everything has been said by chicagomedic and RA.
And your posts are always a pleasure to read and very interesting RA! I didn't know which scales have their own modes besides Harmonic/Melodic Minor and Diatonic Major.
coleman  
5 Jan 2011 05:44 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
United States
Karma: 8
ChicagoMedic says:
Now, playing "modally" involves stressing the root note of the mode (in the case of D Dorian, that is D) but still using the notes of the C Major scale...I find this hard to do sometimes....

thats a good start man but it has alot to do with the altered note(s) as well. in the case of d dorian it would be the natural sixth, B. that makes it dorian. but you also have to stress the chord. since d dorian is a minor scale it works over d minor. so the way i would play over it would be to play the chord tones and the natural sixth. like in e phrygian i like to use the flat second as a walk up to the third.
RA  
5 Jan 2011 15:15 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
@admiral- it's not a good metaphor by any means (how can a scale be a car or a robot), but I think people look into words to much. Like "theory"; is rules, is guidelines, NO IT"S THEORY!! that is a word you know look it up. Same thing with modes, I just thought whats has modes, TRANSFORMERS!! :)

but as to scales, many other scales have modes for each notes/tone and many only have a few (Diminished scale has two). Some scales, like pentatonic, uses the same building blocks as another larger scales and, at lest in this instance, can be viewed as their little brother of sorts (pentatonic and diatonic major are both built with straight fifths). There are many other eastern scales with many modes, but then we starting running into trouble with 12-tone equal temperament and the fact they use quarter tones and many other issues. But even being, the scales above our not really proper they are actually fuged a bit. But what makes them is they can all be constructed out of thirds in 12-tone equal temperament. They are the scales you will always run into in western music (Debussy liked modes out of Major Locrian as well as other impressionists).


@coleman-- I whole heartily agree, but we have to remember who we are writting for, caiothegreat. He is just learning his scales and probably really doesn't completely get extended harmony nor knows how to establish a key. And as you rightly stated "thats a good start," and that just what it is the first step in the door.
caiothegreat  
5 Jan 2011 17:32 | Quote
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Karma
Thank you guys very much for the advice. You guys have really helped me in understanding modes better, I was very confused before but now I get the idea of it. Well, I guess I better get practicing.
coleman  
5 Jan 2011 22:46 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
United States
Karma: 8
my response was for chicagomedic maybe i should have specifified


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