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A Question

Beginners
Senshival  
7 Oct 2010 06:12 | Quote
Joined: 08 Aug 2010
Philippines
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anyone knows what is the use of modes and scales?
EMB5490  
7 Oct 2010 06:22 | Quote
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
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nothing, you learn them and forget them.

Im kidding. I could do 10 pages on the subject but i gotta go to music school :) :) so i will answer with a simple sentance

The use of modes and scales is one of the most important things you will ever learn as a musician. Maybe not as a guitarist, but as a musician.

Ill elaborate when i come home if i get home before our resident explainerers explain things which need explaining. haha (yes thats you jazz, gs, carlsnow... etc etc etc)

Senshival  
7 Oct 2010 06:36 | Quote
Joined: 08 Aug 2010
Philippines
Karma
its really hard to learn this kind of things..
but Ill have to persue..
^^
EMB5490  
7 Oct 2010 17:26 | Quote
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
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yeah. Not really, i suggest a good teacher hold the high bill...

IF you wanna take your music and musicianship to the next level, knowing theory is a must with 2 t's and a captial m.
thatguitarguy  
7 Oct 2010 17:50 | Quote
Joined: 24 Aug 2010
United States
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http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/lesson.php?id=213
http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/lesson.php?id=104
http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/lesson.php?id=6
Senshival  
8 Oct 2010 10:43 | Quote
Joined: 08 Aug 2010
Philippines
Karma
then what would that mean?
Admiral  
8 Oct 2010 10:48 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
What is the use of modes and scales?
Pick any of your favourite musicians. Do you think they just play random notes? ^^
BodomBeachTerror  
8 Oct 2010 12:12 | Quote
Joined: 27 May 2008
Canada
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I pick Jack White.... Yes, mostly i think he does, other than pentatonic shapes, but thats not theory at all.. saying you need to know theory to get anywhere as a musician is complete bull. I think thats what ruins music, playing what is "right" other than what you want to play.

Whats the use of scales? Learn them, and ROCK OUT!!!
Empirism  
8 Oct 2010 12:55 | Quote
Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Finland
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That was a nice pick BBT, very nice pick...

But still, his "noises?" notes, still suits to theme of his songs, and I dont think they are "random notes" or "random shapes" or anything like that, I think he clearly know what he is doing.

But anyway KUDOS!
BodomBeachTerror  
8 Oct 2010 13:00 | Quote
Joined: 27 May 2008
Canada
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yeah he knows what he's doing, but not because he went and found out what modes should be played over what chords, and made sure everything went according to "theory"

I was listening to the Misfits this morning, a fairly successful band I would say. and they pretty much just played 4 or 5 different power chords in each song, and know what? They frickin rocked.
Same with the Beatles, they had songs that were catchy, they had songs that were soulful, they had songs that had beautiful melodies and orchestral parts, and they too, rocked. And their knowledge of theory was... *drum roll* ZILCH!

I could go on, like Bob Dylan, who played guitar in one key, and played harmonica in another.
EMB5490  
8 Oct 2010 14:11 | Quote
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
United States
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BodomBeachTerror says:
I pick Jack White.... Yes, mostly i think he does, other than pentatonic shapes, but thats not theory at all.. saying you need to know theory to get anywhere as a musician is complete bull. I think thats what ruins music, playing what is "right" other than what you want to play.

Whats the use of scales? Learn them, and ROCK OUT!!!


Im either going to take thias as a joke or as someone who doesnt truley understand theory.


The difference is improvising and creating your own solos.

Senshival, since you dont have knowledge of theory ill use you as an example, and i mean no offence by it.

If someone asked you to play a 7th chord with a sharp 9th could you do it... how bout a regular 7th chord.... How bout if someone asked to improvise of a simple "a7" chord. how bout someone said solo over a "2 5 1" progession in the key of a... How about if someone told you the chord changes were fm7 to Db7 to Dm7 to fm7... How about if they told you to solo over that.

yeah youd probably sound in all honest like crap. And thats if you try at it. When i didnt know this if someone gave me chords id be like... uh... What key is that... and what scales are in that key... In your case itd be "and how do you play those scales?"

So i STRONGLY strongly disagree with that. Its one thing if you dont have the necesary things to learn it... but if you do and just choose not to...

And about it lowering your musical roads and creativity. I say how do you play over those progressions without it... Chances are youll be hitting wrong notes and itll sound like crap. You cant just rock out. Its not like you pick up a guitar and become hendrix.


And your saying the beatles didnt know thoery? have you heard some of pauls basslines???

Granted you dont need to be the most knowledgeable person ever, even though i recommend trying, not knowing scales, how to play them, what scales work over chords, what progressions sound good etc.... is just stupid if your going to persue music.

And jack white knows theory whether he says he does or he doesnt... knowing a scale is theory...

If your going to say learning theory is stupid and that you can write succesful songs based on... Luck then your wrong. i dont just respectivly disagree with you im flat out saying your wrong... Maybe im sick and feeling bad today... and maybe im just in a bad mood. But your flat out wrong. Not knowing theory and trying to play and write and improvise your own solos is like driving a car blindfolded with no experience driving a car ever. Thats like saying im gonna go bike 100 miles and never bike before. Thats like saying im gonna be a brain surgen and not pass biology in high school. Point is learn theory. yeah it may be boring to some. But if you restrict your playijng to playing other peoples solos... Your ideas will be theres eccentially.


Now once you learn theory you dont just play scales up and down... You make melodies rhtyhms in your head, and express them...

Have you heard jazz? Perfect example. Chromatic passings all over the place (chromatic=a non diatonic note, or a note not in the key, or a note that should sound like crap, and when used properly sounds awesome) but wicked solos. why? they know their theory, know how to make their solos sound awesome and know how to make chromatic notes sound awesome...

Jerry Garcia does that soo well also.


Oh and by the way not meaning to burst your bubble. But jack white plays anything but random notes... Hes a blues player with a knowledge of theory.

Learning theory takes a while. If you think you can learn it in a week i disagree... But its worth it if your looking long term. If you just wanna play your favorite solos of your favorite bands... its not necesary really...

THEORY saves lives hahah

I mean even in your sweeping lesson. You tab out 2 different ways to play a minor arpeggio. You know what that is? R b3 5... You know what that is...... THEORY.
BodomBeachTerror  
8 Oct 2010 14:35 | Quote
Joined: 27 May 2008
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Okay maybe I was too quick to say they had no theory. But they didnt have any formal theory training, they just pieced it together. And yeah if you want to be Steve Vai or something I fully understand the need for theory

I didnt mean to write theory off. I really didn't. I just hate it when people lean on it so much they dont just play music.

No offense intended to anyone.
EMB5490  
8 Oct 2010 14:52 | Quote
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
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That i understand. And i find steve vai very bland along with satch for many reasons and thats one of them. There very steryl for lack of a better word. It kinda sounds like scale wankery to me.

But to play mmusic youve gotta learn theory its a must. How creative you are when you use it is up to you.
macandkanga  
8 Oct 2010 14:57 | Quote
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
United States
Karma: 21
I believe you have to know a lot of "whats" in theory but don't necessarilly need to know all the "whys". In other words, if you want to solo and not trip over yourself you will need to know what, for example, a major scale is. You don't really need to know why, you just need to know these seven notes repeat themselves all over the fretboard. The problem is the more "whats" you know, the more "whys" you will WANT to know.

I discovered this myself by learning a lot on my own and then getting stuck. Once I started to learn about theory, the "whys", it oppened a whole new world for me.
Admiral  
8 Oct 2010 18:33 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
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BodomBeachTerror says:
I pick Jack White.... Yes, mostly i think he does, other than pentatonic shapes, but thats not theory at all..


He still uses the chromatic scale!
EMB5490  
8 Oct 2010 19:29 | Quote
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hes very very bluesy, but he knows his theory...
Senshival  
10 Oct 2010 05:10 | Quote
Joined: 08 Aug 2010
Philippines
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now i know what Master EMB means..
Theories are necessary to us..
am i right?
BodomBeachTerror  
10 Oct 2010 10:21 | Quote
Joined: 27 May 2008
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theories are just theories. if i came up with my own theories, then we could use those!
thatguitarguy  
10 Oct 2010 12:26 | Quote
Joined: 24 Aug 2010
United States
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BodomBeachTerror says:
theories are just theories. if i came up with my own theories, then we could use those!


that is the truest thing ive heard all week.
EMB5490  
10 Oct 2010 13:59 | Quote
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that is very true.
nullnaught  
10 Oct 2010 19:58 | Quote
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Karma: 22
Theory is a tool.
thatguitarguy  
10 Oct 2010 20:53 | Quote
Joined: 24 Aug 2010
United States
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though a few years ago i would have been more on the side of theory because it helped me focus on one area by narrowing down my choices and making the best out of what i had. now I just do anything and find out what scale i was using later.
nullnaught  
10 Oct 2010 22:12 | Quote
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Karma: 22
NEVER MODULATING seems to narrow you down. But that is my opinion.
Afro_Raven  
12 Oct 2010 03:37 | Quote
Joined: way back
United Kingdom
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Moderator
OK! Time for me to chip in I think! There's stuff that needs to be said here.

To all those guitarists/musicians (but in practice it's usually guitarists) who say that you do not need to learn any theory in order to advance your musical development - you are 100%, totally and completely WRONG! The fact that you are learning - i.e. gaining knowledge that you previously didn't have - means you become better as a musician, even if it simply means you learn some new theory that you don't like the sound of and want to avoid in future. If this is the case, you are still developing, simply by establishing what you DO and DON'T like.

I saw the Misfits, Bob Dylan and The Beatles mentioned earlier; OK, some good examples there (except that The Beatles were very clued up on theory, that's why they managed to write so many great songs that sounded so different to one another) but do you realise how much of a rarity they are, in terms of musicians with long-lasting, stable careers who don't possess a well-developed theoretical vocabulary? If you want to make money - no, scrap that, if you want to have a sustainable career as a musician - these days, you won't get far at all without a knowledge of theory.

To demonstrate my point, BodomBeachTerror: let's say you were in a recording session with a jazz artist, and you were getting paid 1000/$1000 (both are good sums of money) for two hour's work. The pianist says to you "OK BBT, we're recording a new tune with an 8-bar head (hands you music notation), a 16 A and a 16 B. The A's a simple II - V - I, the B's a V7 - ii* - vi - IV - IVm - I, and you need to use some Lydian Dominant over that. Go!"

Your response: "Can I just use some power chords? That's all The Misfits did and they did well out of it."

Jazz pianist: "Get off the premises."

Know what I mean?

Afro
BodomBeachTerror  
12 Oct 2010 11:37 | Quote
Joined: 27 May 2008
Canada
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Yeah I totally get what you're saying
EMB5490  
12 Oct 2010 11:50 | Quote
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
United States
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Afro_Raven says:
OK! Time for me to chip in I think! There's stuff that needs to be said here.

To all those guitarists/musicians (but in practice it's usually guitarists) who say that you do not need to learn any theory in order to advance your musical development - you are 100%, totally and completely WRONG! The fact that you are learning - i.e. gaining knowledge that you previously didn't have - means you become better as a musician, even if it simply means you learn some new theory that you don't like the sound of and want to avoid in future. If this is the case, you are still developing, simply by establishing what you DO and DON'T like.

I saw the Misfits, Bob Dylan and The Beatles mentioned earlier; OK, some good examples there (except that The Beatles were very clued up on theory, that's why they managed to write so many great songs that sounded so different to one another) but do you realise how much of a rarity they are, in terms of musicians with long-lasting, stable careers who don't possess a well-developed theoretical vocabulary? If you want to make money - no, scrap that, if you want to have a sustainable career as a musician - these days, you won't get far at all without a knowledge of theory.

To demonstrate my point, BodomBeachTerror: let's say you were in a recording session with a jazz artist, and you were getting paid 1000/$1000 (both are good sums of money) for two hour's work. The pianist says to you "OK BBT, we're recording a new tune with an 8-bar head (hands you music notation), a 16 A and a 16 B. The A's a simple II - V - I, the B's a V7 - ii* - vi - IV - IVm - I, and you need to use some Lydian Dominant over that. Go!"

Your response: "Can I just use some power chords? That's all The Misfits did and they did well out of it."

Jazz pianist: "Get off the premises."

Know what I mean?

Afro


Thank You! :)



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