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F Mixolydian Scale - Need chords.

Music Theory
neomass1  
13 Jul 2010 00:12 | Quote
Joined: 10 Apr 2010
United States
Karma: 11
Hi everyone.

I have been working with a song that is in this key, I want to try and find some chords that I could use with it. I know thats not much to help out but I just need some stuff to get my brain thinking, ideas etc. almost anything will do. Here is a lick from it.
the Rhythm is not in this, I play it a lot faster. I just wanted you to have some idea of the progression. Already looking at it I have some ideas, but I still want to see what you have to say.

let ring --------------------------------------------------------|
E||--8--------x--------|--8--------x--------|--8--------x--------|
B||--0--------0--------|--0--------0--------|--0--------0--------|
G||--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|
D||--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|
A||--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|
E||--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|

let ring -----------------------------------------------------|
--8--------8--------|--8--------8--------|--8--------8--------|
--6--------0--------|--6--------0--------|--6--------0--------|
--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|
--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|
--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|
--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|



----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
----------------------|----------------------|--0----0----0----0----|
--3----3----3----3----|--1----1----1----1----|--0----0----0----0----|
--1----1----1----1----|--1----1----1----1----|--1----1----1----1----|



----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
----------------------|--8----8----8----8----|--7----7----7----7----|
--5----5----5----5----|----------------------|----------------------|
--6----6----6----6----|--6----6----6----6----|--5----5----5----5----|



----------------------|----------------------|-------------------||
----------------------|----------------------|-------------------||
----------------------|----------------------|-------------------||
--5----5----5----5----|----------------------|--1----------------||
----------------------|--3----3----3----3----|--1----------------||
--3----3----3----3----|--1----1----1----1----|--1----------------||

sorry if it looks all warped.
Guitarslinger124  
13 Jul 2010 01:35 | Quote
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
United States
Lessons: 12
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Karma: 38
Moderator
First of all, check it dude - Syntax Lesson (Keeps your tabs from looking bad!)

Second, F Mixolydian is A# Major. Or, purely in a scale sense:


A# Ionian
C Dorian
D Phrygian
D# Lydian
F Mixolydian
G Aeolian
A Locrian


How about them apples? So, playing Mixolydian over a major chord sounds cool, so try F Major.


e:-1
B:-1
G:-2
D:-3
A:-3
E:-1


You can also try the rest of the chords in that key:


A#maj Cm Dm D#maj Gm Adim |
e:---5----8---10----11---3----5---|
B:---5----8---10----11---3----5---|
G:---4----8---10----12---3----5---|
D:---7----10--12----13---5----7---|
A:---7----10--12----13---5----6---|
E:---5----8---10----11---3----5---|


Diminished chords are always fun. If I was playing that Adim in your situation, I might go something like this, Adim-A#m-Cdim-A#maj. Just an idea.

Hope that help.

«Rock on!»
neomass1  
13 Jul 2010 02:12 | Quote
Joined: 10 Apr 2010
United States
Karma: 11
Guitarslinger124 - thank you vary much for the first part vary helpful. As for the other part I see what you mean, I'm starting to understand the change in keys for scales. I gave the chords a try and found a few that would be vary help full, mostly the Diminished. I didn't even think of trying that that kind of chord for this, but the major as a ground point to build from is a vary useful start thank you.
Guitarslinger124  
13 Jul 2010 02:22 | Quote
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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Moderator
Glad I could help!


«Rock on!»
carlsnow  
13 Jul 2010 06:29 | Quote
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
United States
Lessons: 2
Karma: 23
Guitarslinger124 says:
Second, F Mixolydian is A# Major. Or, purely in a scale sense:


A# Ionian

C Dorian

D Phrygian

D# Lydian

F Mixolydian

G Aeolian

A Locrian




I was, at first gonna disagree with ya , G-Slinger but yer right (then, lol, i read the post again)
I DO Think, however, that when a beginner with say only 3 or 4 years playing time comes across this magical modal meal, if you SAY, A#, most will START on A# and 'figure it out from there', likely confusing them, and so I now teach modal relationships to my students as I'll outline below.


SO ... for the sake of 'ease of learning'

-> View #2 ...the "keep it simple" approach...
.. same thing as above but with the emphasis on the key-mode as it is easier to understand and compliment this modal function when you are a beginning guitarist, imo


IF you choose to play Modally...
and chose F-5 (mix/maj) as your parent scale then:

F Mix = F - Mix...

BUT this move causes each related pitch/mode to be 'affected' as well.

In "F- Mixolydian"

The 'tree' =

1 - Mixolydian
2 - Aeolian
3 - Locrian
4 - Ionian
5 - Dorian
6 - Phrygian
7 - Lydian....

BUT that can get confusing for beginners, so I'll plot it the way i think it could be best understood by everyone from 5 years to 50, lol...

The F-Mixolydian Mode count could also be played out like so beginning on F (1st-fret/6th-string-F, that is):

5 , 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4
...with Mix =ing the '5' and Ionian , the '1'

This can be done with all 144 Modes;
It should be noted that IF you play Modally, it is important to remember that the other 'modal families' such as, Melodic, Harmonic, Pentatonic(only 5 Modes)etc-etc ... IF PLAYED also adhere to this 'standard'.

Also...
IF you use the three-string per note scales, (along with the others)
IT , the three note "stack-pattern" = Both the 6th and 5th string
..
Even though you can play the "three-per" scales starting on the 5th sting, and may prefer things that way, the fact that all notes in a 6-string scale are represented (at least)twice-again ("below" the root , usually on the 4)

its all confusing as heck at first but once you begin to understand and begin to "move" in this way, modally, everything snaps into place beautifully and you will be allowed many-many more choices when either voicing chords or playing modally.
+(scale/chords = same thing actually : "chord-scale" being the default way we say this)

IE:
way back when we all learned that 'open-C' Maj scale that begins on C but falls to E before 'rising' again up to G (then back in most teachings)... The fact that moving DOWN before UP made no sense whatsoever, but it was learned , and later, understood; its the same thing here, but we are dealing with a much much broader tonal-palette than those Open Scales provided.

it just takes time ...and a LOT of patience :)

Hope that helped!

RAWK!
Cs

PS: if you are wondering how (modally) both G-Slinger and I can be 'right' ....simply play both "views" from F-Mix.



Guitarslinger124  
13 Jul 2010 07:49 | Quote
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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Two ways to look at the same thing. I guess to start, it might be easier to start with the "parent" scale as per the context of the situation. However, eventually you'll have to go back the beginning. Only thing I would adjust with my previous post is to say Bb major/Ionian instead of A# major/Ionian.

So yea, I figure that you are right (In method - you're the pro-teacher), haha, but I don't think it matters if it is easier for "us" but rather for whoever is listening.

«Rock on!»
carlsnow  
13 Jul 2010 10:39 | Quote
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
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Lessons: 2
Karma: 23
Yeah; I can Dig it, GS! :)
(….and ya knew this was coming lol..)
But! to further the discussion (…and hopefully NOT to derail anyone’s studies) :

As I see/hear things: you are both right and "wrong" and right.
^ Makes no sense does it?
It does, actually!
Though, in a seemingly strange way, I admit!
(lol)

*(main point for me and I took the liberty to put it in bold)
Guitarslinger124 says:
I figure that you are right (In method - you're the pro-teacher), haha, * but I don't think it matters if it is easier for "us" but rather for whoever is listening.


*This is where I disagree.
B U T (stranger still) …for the same reasons you stated!
Unless by “listening”, you mean(t) reading the post…lol!

If so, well, this will suffice as a nice discussion on western, modal, chord/scale theory. (Over The Intercom we hear) : “Follow the arrows to the room labeled: “Western Modal, Chord/scale Theory 101” all the crazy folk are in THERE!”)
-
For me the statement; "I don't think it matters if it is easier for "us" but rather for whoever is listening."

While seemingly a 'nit-picky'-disagreement, harbors a larger truth: Any/All chord-scale movements based on a key-tone/scale is dependent ON that Key(chord/scale) for **all 'tempered-movement' within it.
(**as with everything , exceptions exist).

To that end, I’ll add my grumpy old guitar teachers “take” on this (finally!) wonderfully substantive ‘theory and practice’ post.
-
The theory we are both expounding upon is correct, and both (and more) ways of approaching it are correct. This is where the teaching/learning part pushes me towards (since this is basically a beginners forum) the method I outlined.

…Don’t get me wrong, I do teach F-Mix as YOU outlined … but only after a good, basic but thorough understanding of ChordScale has been reached by a student in the “main” (I know, I know, lol) four or five ‘modes’ (Major(Ionian) – Melodic(Maj) – Melodic-Min – Harmonic-Min, Pentatonic).

The reason is simple.

Even my “beginner-intermediate” level students; the Cats who know the whole fretboard fairly well, run scales cleanly and with confidence…and, of course know how to play , if not build complex chords. Those folks, as good as they are getting, look like a deer in headlights when I drop the bomb we’re discussing on them. And these are the ones who haven’t been screwed-up via bad Internet “theory pages” and such.

The reason is simple and very ‘human’

We, as humans, do not want to look/think forwards while thinking/looking backwards, as happens when I say … “We are(Modally) in ‘A’, please play the relative minor”
What happens first? … they begin in A and look UP the Plank “1, 2, 3, etc” and find that ‘relative’ either on the 6th string – 14th Fret –OR- the 5th string – 9th Fret; Its just human nature.
OF COURSE I show (and have shown) them that the Relative-Minor is a minor-Third behind the Major, but that does little to help this mental hurdle.

This is why I teach “from the nut” when dealing with Modes; Always beginning in a low position (talking straight 1234567 runs) and moving up gives the student with the acoustic guitar that stops at fret 14 or so the field of vision needed to run the basic 1 – 7 in the basic, or first learned, four (or so) modes. (*see my lesson ‘scaling up’ for example).

Once the ‘Construct” has been established (the patterned modal chord-scale progression 1-7, from the nut), I then phase in the “A – (Aeolian) = Gb” stuff.
They love it, and a new plateau is reached

THEN, since I find it more than silly to play up then back when trying to teach the various chord-scales like A (as 1) to E (as 5, Mix) then back to open or Gb (as 6) and such …

I have them start each mode at the lowest possible degree , barring and ‘open’ stuff (for now) like so:

F (Ionian) = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 … easy

A (Ionian) = a change in thinking, as the low-voice is the Minor-Third/Natural-Minor or Aeolian on the second fret, causing the Ionian “cycle” to begin on the SIX rather than the ONE: 6,7,1,2,3,4,5)

Teaching ‘A’ this way (after F) starts to move the brain towards thinking of chord-scale movements as being like a ‘fretboard wheel’ (what goes around comes BACK around) thus enabling the student to easily figure that
“Starting ‘C’ major on the first fret (Lydian form played from the F) makes sense!”

Once those hurdles are crossed its easier to see why , when I say play F-Lydian, I could just as well mean C-Lydian(1st fret) depending on the key we are in.

So when you say: “I don't think it matters if it is easier for "us" but rather for whoever is listening.

I disagree on two fronts

1- Its easier on the student, therefore the student progresses more quickly and with a deeper understanding

2- BECAUSE it’s easier for the student to understand, it’s MUCH easier for me to listen, and help them move deeper into their studies.

(2.5 = I haven't had a good non-student Theory talk inna while lol !)

But then that’s the thing with theory:
there is
‘Practical Theory’ and
‘Book Theory’
and while the two often meet, no amount of reading theory, will make up for a lack of practical theory.

I know this due to the fact, lol, that I’ve had to un-teach so much ‘bad-theory’(www, usually) In order to help a new student progress or ‘get out of a rut’ or simply put the pieces together. THIS is especially true of some of the Cats I get who have taught themselves for a few years and developed bad habits and such…

In the end I teach very much as you wrote, GS, but I have, over the years, found it immensely helpful to use the approach I outlined.
Easier to teach, learn, and hear.

:)

RAWK!
Cs


Global Disclaimer :
Carl Snow is an old, jaded & slightly bitter old man who cannot be held accountable for anything, much less his opinionatedly opinionated opinions or those of his imaginary friends. We sincerely apologize if this Carl Snow and/or its behavior have infected you or others with its ugly brain and its juices.
Guitarslinger124  
13 Jul 2010 11:18 | Quote
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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I suppose the years of teaching have earned their own respect on your part. That was perhaps one of your better posts thus far. Honestly, I had first considered to explain it "your" way. But I thought better of it. Hehe, I guess that is what makes us unique just like everyone else.

I understand where you are coming from. Me personally, I found it very easy to learn "backwards" as it were hehe. Probably due to "teaching" myself. I have recently begun teaching others and I have found that in no way can I teach others as I did myself.

So based on that, I will take your word for it. :)

«Rock on!»
neomass1  
15 Jul 2010 15:36 | Quote
Joined: 10 Apr 2010
United States
Karma: 11
thank you both of you, some of these was vary understandable and others not so much. The fact that you are both willing to post so much gives me some hope with for my music, in fact this was more then I thought I would get. Also the song is moving along, slowly but moving. Thank you.
Zapped  
16 Jul 2010 09:05 | Quote
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
United States
Karma
neomass1 says:
I have been working with a song that is in this key, I want to try and find some chords that I could use with it. I know thats not much to help out but I just need some stuff to get my brain thinking, ideas etc. almost anything will do. Here is a lick from it.


I realize that the tab you shared is just a "lick" from a larger piece of music you're working on, but what you shared doesn't seem to be in F Mixolydian exactly.

First off, despite what an earlier reply stated, there is no "A# major" scale in the standard notation using up to 7 sharps and flats in the key signature. F Mixolydian is a relative mode to the standard key of Bb major, a key with a single flat. F mixolydian uses the notes F G A Bb C D Eb.

Your tab begins with a double-stop on the 8th fret of the 1st (high-E) string and an open 2nd (B) string. That's definitely an in-your-face opening, using one of the more dissonant intervals, an augmented octave, or a b9 if you prefer. The notes are a high C atop a B. OK if you intended it but I'm trying to make sure it's not a typo. Nothing in the first 6 measures of intro on the upper strings implies F mixolydian.

In measures 6 and beyond you are playing on the lower two or three strings with mostly power chords or simple octaves. The progression looks like this...

F5 Bb5 Dm/F Bb(no5) Bb(octave) A(octave) G(octave) F5 F7sus4

The only use of the Eb note which might indicate F mixolydian instead of standard F major happens on the very last chord, which to me looks more like an addition of dissonance than an integral part of what precedes it. So basically in this section you're just working in straight F major (except for that final chord).

Anyway, you were asking about chords to use in this piece, and for the progression I wrote out from your tab you could just go with the standard key-of-F major/minor chords, i.e. F Bb C (majors) and Gm Am Dm (minors). At the very end you could go with a Bbsus4 or even an Eb in above the final dissonant chord.

Have fun!



neomass1  
3 Dec 2010 15:19 | Quote
Joined: 10 Apr 2010
United States
Karma: 11
Its been some what feels to be forever ago when I posted this. Looking back most of the things posted in reply I'm starting to understand. Thank you all for you in depth dessication, it really helped me to understand how to get help.


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