# Modes Question...

Music Theory
 nullnaught 8 Jun 2010 17:37 | Quote Joined: 05 Jun 2010Karma: 22 Are the modes, like Ionian and Dorian and such just a starting position and ending position to play in when in a certain scale. What Im asking is if I play a c major scale for example. And start and end on a different note other than the first. Does that then become one of the modes? Depending on where I start.
 JazzMaverick 8 Jun 2010 19:19 | Quote Joined: 28 Aug 2008United Kingdom Lessons: 24Licks: 37Karma: 47 Moderator Yeah, the modes are basically the different positions of that original scale. And those modes you're talking about go in order like this... (as an example we'll use the C Major scale) C Major = C(1), D(2), E(3), F(4), G(5), A(6), B(7) D Dorian = D(2), E(3), F(4), G(5), A(6), B(7), C(1) E Phrygian = E(3), F(4), G(5), A(6), B(7), C(1), D(2) F Lydian = F(4), G(5), A(6), B(7), C(1), D(2), E(3) G Mixolydian = G(5), A(6), B(7), C(1), D(2), E(3), F(4) A Aeolian = A(6), B(7), C(1), D(2), E(3), F(4), G(5) B Locrian = B(7), C(1), D(2), E(3), F(4), G(5), A(6) I hope this helps! :D
 Admiral 9 Jun 2010 13:08 | Quote Joined: 10 May 2009Germany Lessons: 1Karma: 12 my suggestion is: learn each mode as a different scale and also see it as such, not just another degree of the major scale.
 Zula110100100 9 Jun 2010 18:13 | Quote Joined: 06 Sep 2009United States Licks: 2Karma So my question with modes is if it's pretty much all about use for targeting strong notes on strong beats? Like, How is it different than targeting chord tones and stuff? And is that even what I need to be doing?
 Admiral 10 Jun 2010 14:27 | Quote Joined: 10 May 2009Germany Lessons: 1Karma: 12 the different modes only vary from each other by one, two or three notes. So if you really want to make a mode sound like the "mode" you have to target those specific "different mode". Take the A minor pentatonic (A C D E G) and the A minor scale (A HC D EF G) if you want to make them sound different you have to use the H and the F. Do you get my point? Each mode is in essence a different scale. Also when it gets to modes your underlying harmonic center (chords) has to be matching to the scale you play. Playing D Dorian over a Cmajor chord will just sound like Cmajor. Playing DDorian over an D minor chord will sound like D Dorian. If you just target chord tones you are playing arpeggios, basically breaking the chord apart into its different notes. My suggestion for modes is to look at their structure from each starting note on the low e string. Then you will see their differences and similarities.
 RA 11 Jun 2010 03:04 | Quote Joined: 24 Sep 2008United States Karma: 16 In case you need it diatonic major/parent major scale Ionian-1,2,3,4,5,6,7 Dorian-1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7 Phrygian-1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7 Lydian-1,2,3,4#,5,6,7 Mixolydian-1,2,3,4,5,6,b7 Aeolian-1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7 Locrian-1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7 Diatonic "in C" (c)Ionian-C,D,E,F,G,A,B (d)Dorian-D,E,F,G,A,B,C (e)Phrygian-E,F,G,A,B,C,D (f)Lydian-F,G,A,B,C,D,E (g)Mixolydian-G,A,B,C,D,E,F (a)Aeolian-A,B,C,E,D,F,G (b)Locrian-B,C,D,E,F,G,A Parallel(have same tonic) (c)Ionian-C,D,E,F,G,A,B (c)Dorian-C,D,bE,F,G,A,bB (c)Phrygian-C,bD,bE,F,G,bA,bB (c)Lydian-C,D,E,F#,G,A,B (c)Mixolydian-C,D,E,F,G,A,bB (c)Aeolian-C,D,bE,F,G,bA,bB (c)Locrian-C,bD,bE,F,bG,bA,bB
 Admiral 11 Jun 2010 05:18 | Quote Joined: 10 May 2009Germany Lessons: 1Karma: 12 Thank you for the correction RA, Ionian is an arpeggio of C major 13, but looking at the amount of fingers at least I have, It's hard to voice it with all notes on the guitar, haha. One question to your thesis though. How do you want to make a riff dorian sounding when you are playing D Dorian, say over an Cmajor chord. I never said that you have to play D dorian over Dminor etc, it was just an example, but modes also correlate to the underlying harmony as your ear is fixed to the "root point". If you play Cmajor your ear will see C as the starting point and therefore see D Dorian as CIonian starting from D. So i think to some extent you have to stick to some rules? Or am I wrong? Even if you stress the minor intervals it doesnt seem to work for me? I would be very thankful for some more insight on that.
 khane 11 Jun 2010 16:28 | Quote Joined: 11 Jun 2010United States Karma Each mode is a C major scale starting on a different note than the root. Plain and simple. Ex. In Am, the dorian mode is a C major scale starting on G played over Am. It is true that all the modes have a different scale shape if your looking at a 6th string root, but that will only get you so far. Learn all the notes, then learn how chord progressions and modes interact. It will take more time than learning the 7 shapes, trust me, this is more useful. I learned the 7 shapes and it didn't do me much good aside from confusing me when I tried to learn them the right way.
 Zula110100100 11 Jun 2010 18:13 | Quote Joined: 06 Sep 2009United States Licks: 2Karma I was under the impression an arpeggio was only if it is played ascending or descending in order, otherwise you are playing using chord tones but not an arpeggio(or so says The everything guide to music composition by Eric Starr) and I guess the "add notes" are probably passing tones?
 MoshZilla1016 13 Jul 2010 22:55 | Quote Joined: 10 Jul 2010United States Lessons: 4Licks: 19Karma: 16 RA says:Ionian-1,2,3,4,5,6,7 Dorian-1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7 Phrygian-1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7 Lydian-1,2,3,4#,5,6,7 Mixolydian-1,2,3,4,5,6,b7 Aeolian-1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7 Locrian-1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7 If you look at RA's formulas you can get a good idea of what mode will play over a chord. Ionian has no sharps or flats= good over major or major 7th chords Dorian flat 3rd & 7th=Good over minor or minor 7th chords Phrygian flat 3rd 7th 2nd & 6th= play well over minor minor 7th but use where you may want a spanish or classical sound. Lydian has a major scale but a raised 4th. Use for a bright lively tone. Play over major chord or can be used for a darker sound if rhythm plays I--bV progression (the devil's 5th). Mixolydian Major scale with flat 7th= can be used over major or dom. 7th chords. Mostly bright sounding. Petrucci's Glaskow Kiss uses mixolydian scattered throughout. Aolian The natural minor scale. Good for almost all minor keys. Learn this one well since you are only 1 note away from learning Harmonic Minor. Locrian is in my opinion the least used scale but could be the most powerful scale. the dark tone is great for metal minor solos. It is in my opinion the link between minor and diminished scales.
 coleman 13 Jul 2010 23:13 | Quote Joined: 10 May 2009United States Karma: 8 locrian is also the half dim so yeah it is halfway between minor and dim
 carlsnow 14 Jul 2010 07:19 | Quote Joined: 29 Apr 2009United States Lessons: 2Karma: 23 MoshZilla1016 says:Locrian is in my opinion the least used scale but could be the most powerful scale. Amen! Easily my favorite of the Ionian-based modes! (Lydian being a close 2nd) ...and a great mode to run Maj/Min Triads over (ala the 'Coltrane Matrix') so again i say, Amen! RAWK! Cs