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Modes Question...

Music Theory
nullnaught  
8 Jun 2010 17:37 | Quote
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Karma: 22
Are the modes, like Ionian and Dorian and such just a starting position and ending position to play in when in a certain scale. What Im asking is if I play a c major scale for example. And start and end on a different note other than the first. Does that then become one of the modes? Depending on where I start.
JazzMaverick  
8 Jun 2010 19:19 | Quote
Joined: 28 Aug 2008
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Moderator
Yeah, the modes are basically the different positions of that original scale.

And those modes you're talking about go in order like this...

(as an example we'll use the C Major scale)

C Major = C(1), D(2), E(3), F(4), G(5), A(6), B(7)
D Dorian = D(2), E(3), F(4), G(5), A(6), B(7), C(1)
E Phrygian = E(3), F(4), G(5), A(6), B(7), C(1), D(2)
F Lydian = F(4), G(5), A(6), B(7), C(1), D(2), E(3)
G Mixolydian = G(5), A(6), B(7), C(1), D(2), E(3), F(4)
A Aeolian = A(6), B(7), C(1), D(2), E(3), F(4), G(5)
B Locrian = B(7), C(1), D(2), E(3), F(4), G(5), A(6)

I hope this helps! :D
Admiral  
9 Jun 2010 13:08 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
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my suggestion is: learn each mode as a different scale and also see it as such, not just another degree of the major scale.
Zula110100100  
9 Jun 2010 18:13 | Quote
Joined: 06 Sep 2009
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So my question with modes is if it's pretty much all about use for targeting strong notes on strong beats? Like, How is it different than targeting chord tones and stuff? And is that even what I need to be doing?
Admiral  
10 Jun 2010 14:27 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
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the different modes only vary from each other by one, two or three notes. So if you really want to make a mode sound like the "mode" you have to target those specific "different mode". Take the A minor pentatonic (A C D E G) and the A minor scale (A HC D EF G) if you want to make them sound different you have to use the H and the F. Do you get my point? Each mode is in essence a different scale. Also when it gets to modes your underlying harmonic center (chords) has to be matching to the scale you play. Playing D Dorian over a Cmajor chord will just sound like Cmajor. Playing DDorian over an D minor chord will sound like D Dorian.

If you just target chord tones you are playing arpeggios, basically breaking the chord apart into its different notes.

My suggestion for modes is to look at their structure from each starting note on the low e string. Then you will see their differences and similarities.
RA  
11 Jun 2010 02:47 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
It doesn't matter what note you start on, the key to modes is the intervals. If i start on E in the key of C It in no way means I'm in Phrygian I could easily just be on the third of Ionian. What matter is my phasing and what notes I'm stressing(if I'm stressing E,G, & C I'm in Ionian regardless of what i start one)

Also I do Admiral's first post one step father(which i think he knows). Each mode is a scale. I don't know why people can't get that. The scales are modes of each other because they share the same notes. Aeolian is a scale, Lydian is a scale, and Locrian is a scale. A Aeolian, F Lydain, And B locrian are modes of each other because they share the same notes.

Admiral says:
Also when it gets to modes your underlying harmonic center (chords) has to be matching to the scale you play. Playing D Dorian over a Cmajor chord will just sound like Cmajor. Playing DDorian over an D minor chord will sound like D Dorian.


not necessarily, actually not really at all. don't fall into the Play C Ionian over C major, G Mixolydian G major crap, well technically right it leads to very bad thinking. again the key is melodic phasing and choral voicing that is what you need to pay attention to. For example, poly chords what the different between C major 7 and E minor not much really there the same thing, Is the chord progression C major then G major or C major then C major9. it is all in context and voicing and phasing. The problem with your thinking is you end up just running scales and it gets really lame. you need to pay attention to the little things while keeping the over all picture in the back of your head. Your thinking in a very rock/metal/shred thing. and i hate to break your bubble but 99% of rock guitarist are crap(doesn't mean there bad musicians(sometimes it does) and can't make good songs, they can) and at best are kindergarten finger painters. My advice start listen and learning jazz(namely be-bop) and not just guitarist!!!! learn theory form them not rock music. any good rock guitarist will tell you the same, even if you don't like it, just learn form them. Get jazz theory books never rock(for the most part) the theory for rock is based off jazz just dumbed down so your better off getting form the source and learning it right.

if You want to lean how to single note solo I'm telling you get Ted Greene's single note solo 1&2. For a complete foundation in single note soloing for guitar. you need to know how to read notation though. and by complete I just mean a solid foundation not complete complete, that pretty much imposable.

Admiral says:
If you just target chord tones you are playing arpeggios, basically breaking the chord apart into its different notes.


guess what C Ionian is a arpeggio, C major 13. Be-bops play by follow the chords and the melody. and they all play the hell out of me and you. you want to target chord tone with add notes. the add notes are dependent on many theories based of scales and harmonic ideas(really isn't a difference between scales and chords)



as for first starting to practicing and/to understating the modes i agree with admiral with a little variation. Start each scale on the first fret B string. which is "C"(do this for two reason one C an easy scale and most know it, two no open string to confuses you) and work you way down the neck only on the B string. Also, first play the modes in Parallel, meaning they always have C as there root. Don't play them in the same order every time mix it up(especially play the major modes back to back and the minor modes back to back to really hear the little differences). To start out run them in order(1234567) to know where each interval is on the fret bored. then when you got them down, make a recording of a simple triad or even just a C drone and improvise over it.

This is the beginning technique of Mick Goodrich's book the "Advancing guitarist," to understand modes and the fret bored there is a but more to it but that to start of. give credit where it is due I guess.


RA  
11 Jun 2010 03:04 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
In case you need it

diatonic major/parent major scale

Ionian-1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Dorian-1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7
Phrygian-1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Lydian-1,2,3,4#,5,6,7
Mixolydian-1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Aeolian-1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Locrian-1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7


Diatonic "in C"

(c)Ionian-C,D,E,F,G,A,B
(d)Dorian-D,E,F,G,A,B,C
(e)Phrygian-E,F,G,A,B,C,D
(f)Lydian-F,G,A,B,C,D,E
(g)Mixolydian-G,A,B,C,D,E,F
(a)Aeolian-A,B,C,E,D,F,G
(b)Locrian-B,C,D,E,F,G,A

Parallel(have same tonic)

(c)Ionian-C,D,E,F,G,A,B
(c)Dorian-C,D,bE,F,G,A,bB
(c)Phrygian-C,bD,bE,F,G,bA,bB
(c)Lydian-C,D,E,F#,G,A,B
(c)Mixolydian-C,D,E,F,G,A,bB
(c)Aeolian-C,D,bE,F,G,bA,bB
(c)Locrian-C,bD,bE,F,bG,bA,bB
Admiral  
11 Jun 2010 05:18 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
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Thank you for the correction RA, Ionian is an arpeggio of C major 13, but looking at the amount of fingers at least I have, It's hard to voice it with all notes on the guitar, haha.

One question to your thesis though. How do you want to make a riff dorian sounding when you are playing D Dorian, say over an Cmajor chord. I never said that you have to play D dorian over Dminor etc, it was just an example, but modes also correlate to the underlying harmony as your ear is fixed to the "root point". If you play Cmajor your ear will see C as the starting point and therefore see D Dorian as CIonian starting from D. So i think to some extent you have to stick to some rules? Or am I wrong? Even if you stress the minor intervals it doesnt seem to work for me? I would be very thankful for some more insight on that.
khane  
11 Jun 2010 16:28 | Quote
Joined: 11 Jun 2010
United States
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Each mode is a C major scale starting on a different note than the root. Plain and simple.

Ex. In Am, the dorian mode is a C major scale starting on G played over Am.

It is true that all the modes have a different scale shape if your looking at a 6th string root, but that will only get you so far. Learn all the notes, then learn how chord progressions and modes interact.

It will take more time than learning the 7 shapes, trust me, this is more useful.

I learned the 7 shapes and it didn't do me much good aside from confusing me when I tried to learn them the right way.
Zula110100100  
11 Jun 2010 18:13 | Quote
Joined: 06 Sep 2009
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I was under the impression an arpeggio was only if it is played ascending or descending in order, otherwise you are playing using chord tones but not an arpeggio(or so says The everything guide to music composition by Eric Starr) and I guess the "add notes" are probably passing tones?
MoshZilla1016  
13 Jul 2010 22:55 | Quote
Joined: 10 Jul 2010
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RA says:
Ionian-1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Dorian-1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7
Phrygian-1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Lydian-1,2,3,4#,5,6,7
Mixolydian-1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Aeolian-1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Locrian-1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7


If you look at RA's formulas you can get a good idea of what mode will play over a chord. Ionian has no sharps or flats= good over major or major 7th chords
Dorian flat 3rd & 7th=Good over minor or minor 7th chords
Phrygian flat 3rd 7th 2nd & 6th= play well over minor minor 7th but use where you may want a spanish or classical sound.
Lydian has a major scale but a raised 4th. Use for a bright lively tone. Play over major chord or can be used for a darker sound if rhythm plays I--bV progression (the devil's 5th).
Mixolydian Major scale with flat 7th= can be used over major or dom. 7th chords. Mostly bright sounding. Petrucci's Glaskow Kiss uses mixolydian scattered throughout.
Aolian The natural minor scale. Good for almost all minor keys. Learn this one well since you are only 1 note away from learning Harmonic Minor.
Locrian is in my opinion the least used scale but could be the most powerful scale. the dark tone is great for metal minor solos. It is in my opinion the link between minor and diminished scales.
coleman  
13 Jul 2010 23:13 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
United States
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locrian is also the half dim so yeah it is halfway between minor and dim
carlsnow  
14 Jul 2010 07:19 | Quote
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MoshZilla1016 says:
Locrian is in my opinion the least used scale but could be the most powerful scale.


Amen!

Easily my favorite of the Ionian-based modes! (Lydian being a close 2nd) ...and a great mode to run Maj/Min Triads over (ala the 'Coltrane Matrix')
so again i say, Amen!

RAWK!
Cs



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