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Music Theory
Admiral  
13 Apr 2010 08:49 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
Ok, I got the pentatonic, and the major scale pretty much nailed, but now i wanted to ask how you approach the modes and the minors. Do you learn the patterns for each of them again over the whole fretboard?
Because at the moment i just tend to move my major scale up and down the fretboard to play dorian etc.
Some comments would be realy appreciated!
case211  
13 Apr 2010 16:09 | Quote
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
United States
Lessons: 2
Licks: 6
Karma: 24
Take whatever key you want to play out of(example A Major) and then think of the notes contained within that scale; A B C# D E F# G#. Now play those notes along each string to learn their positions along each string.
Now that you have done this and seen where the notes lie within the scale and their relation to each other, Start from the C# note on the low E(which is the 9th fret).
Now find the notes succeeding that note all the way up to the octave of C#(go 3 notes per string to keep it simple).

You should have ended up at the 11th fret of the D string with the first octave of C# if you started at the Low E position(barring standard tuning).
Now continue finding the notes within the key of A major all the way up to the next octave of C#.
You should have finished out at the 9th fret of the high E string.
You just played the Phyrgian mode of the key of A Major(or C# phyrgian).
You can use the same process of picking a starting note and then finding the notes in succession after it going one octave at a time, you will eventually learn the "box shapes" of the scales which can be used in any key, only the starting position of these shapes changes location(also the notes contained in the key are going to have variety among them :P).
Don't let these box shapes run your solos however, it's a bad habit to get into. Using box shapes is like drinking, when you do it in moderation you can have some fun and still know where your at and most of what you are doing. if you get blackout drunk with using box shapes they sound repetitive and bland and can be a nasty rut to get out of.
once you learn a "box shape" of a mode, you can use it any key since they don't change(if you stay in the 7 natural modes) shape but only the position.

Hope I didn't mislead you at any point in this post with some(hopefully not) bad info.
Though good luck sir ;) I hope this helped to shed some light on your question.
Admiral  
13 Apr 2010 16:23 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
Thanks case for your reply! But I am over that point, i know how the modes work and I know the box shapes for the major scale and thus for the other modes + minor. But I just wanted to ask if you just also stick to moving the major box shapes around for playing in the modes or do you have different, specific fingerings for each mode in order to idk emhpasize the different intervals in a better way?
case211  
13 Apr 2010 17:34 | Quote
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
United States
Lessons: 2
Licks: 6
Karma: 24
there are different fingerings for emphasizing the modes tonality better, but honestly it's up to you and your ears man :D
Admiral  
13 Apr 2010 18:26 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
thanks a lot man, i kind of figuered it out after looking on a few lessons on youtube as well. I guess in the end it is up to my ears indeed ^^
KicknGuitar  
14 Apr 2010 00:36 | Quote
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Lessons: 6
Karma: 1
The Major scale is Ionian (unless I read you post incorrectly).
For modes I'd suggest you look at some of the lessons here on the site.

such as JazzMaverick's Lesson
http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/lesson.php?id=104

As case mentioned, it's the ears. Why? The focus is on the root note of each scale. If you played a mode from the P1 to P8 you would hear these different "feelings" when you pause and change modes. (easier to hear it using the same root note but changing the scale's patter to a different mode)
Such as A Ionian and A Phrygian.

As for the patterns, pick patterns that cover the neck from the low to high strings. JazzMaverick gives you a fret chart for each mode. As well as all the theory.
A second way it to play it all on one string, but you may want to save this for after you've conquered the modes.

If you get bogged down by all the theory just relax and remember it's only what you hear that will make the distinctions, so relax and listen to the mode you're learning and come back to the theory another time. hell, maybe you'll figure it out on your own!

Have fun.
Admiral  
14 Apr 2010 01:23 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
i mostly got the theory of them, but i am just wondering about some extra questions. I know, the lesson is pretty good, I've had a look at it earlier. Thanks for your reply, kicknguitar!
Reinhardt  
14 Apr 2010 03:54 | Quote
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
South Africa
Karma: 8
Hi just a quick 5 cents
the Melodic Minor (Descending) Scale has all the same patterns as the major scale and very useful to use with minor chords in overall :D
Enjoy
KicknGuitar  
14 Apr 2010 09:07 | Quote
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Lessons: 6
Karma: 1
Melodic Minor? someone's getting fancy!


Admiral, you're welcome. Extra Q's? I wasn't 100% sure of what you were asking in the post so I tried to be semi-general with my response.
Take it easy.
adelaideguitar  
14 Apr 2010 11:30 | Quote
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Australia
Karma: 3
Just my thoughts :-) This is how I think of modes/scale.

If you look at the 3 major modes (lonian, lydian, mixolydian), the 5 major pentatonic are common to all. eg:

The C major pent (C,D,E,G,A) notes are in C lonian, lydian and mixolydian.

So, only 2 notes "define" which major mode you are using. There are only 2 "gaps" in a pentatonic scale where a note can be added without having 3 notes in a row. ie: between the E-G, and A-C.

The first gap notes are F and F#. The second gap is A# and B. Therefore, by picking one of the notes for each of the gaps, you get your scale (mode).

F and B = C Lonian
F# and B = C Lydian
F and A# = C Mixolydian

F# and A# gives the C Overtone scale which isnt a mode but is a valid pentatonic extention. (Very Satch)

You can see that from one major mode to another, only _one_ note changes! Therefore, to maximize the effect of a mode change, you really have to know what note is changing and hit that note. You can hear satch and vai do this all the time.

Example. Noodle the C major scale, and then when you want to change to one of the other major modes hit either F# or A# and hold that note.

I also class modes by the 4 note chord they produce.

C Lonian gives you Cmaj7 and Csus4
C Lydian gives you Cmaj7 and Cmaj dim 5
C Mixolydian gives you C7 and Csus4

You can see there are 4 major chords chords each with their own sounds:
Cmaj7 = Smooth jazzy, layed back, summer days,
Csus4 = Rock like, Rolling Stones
C7 = Blues sounding
Cmaj dim 5 = Very satch (Listen to Flying in a Blue Dream)

So, Hitting one of those 4 possible notes which are missing from the pentatonic scale really effects the sound of your music. The key is knowing what happends when you hit those notes.

Its interesting to note that the 4th scale I spoke about (C Overtone scale) which isn't a mode but a 7 note extention to the pentonic scale without adding chromatic runs has the major chords:

C7 and Cmaj dim 5. Both are very Satch sounding and a lot of satch riffs use those sounds. eg: Surfing With The Alien.

The next interesting thing about this is, there are 5 pent notes and 4 possible notes for the modes. which is 9 notes in total.

There are only 12, so what are the remaining 3? They are:
C#, D# and G#. Hit anyone of these notes and you have swapped to a minor scale. Hiting one of these notes will give you more exotic sounds.

Admiral  
14 Apr 2010 16:05 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
adelaideguitar, you just squared my understanding of the modes! haha, awesome post, thanks a lot, that cleared up a lot! Glad to have you here!
Mici  
14 Apr 2010 16:19 | Quote
Joined: way back
Kosovo
Karma: 9
I'm not going to read your last post, AdelaideGuitars ecause at this point I know I won't understand it but if you think it's good enough maybe you should turn into a lesson.
Reinhardt  
15 Apr 2010 03:51 | Quote
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
South Africa
Karma: 8
Lol @kicknGuitar my reponse was as basic as it can get :P I dont even know much theory but i know switching to melodic minor descending is very easy cuz it uses all the same patterns just in different positions as the major scale.
adelaideguitar  
15 Apr 2010 04:28 | Quote
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Australia
Karma: 3
Personally, I think modes are a little mis-represented. Often sold as the miracle cure to ya musical blues.

So, here is another way to think of modes. Imagine you have a chord progression that starts on E major7. And you start playing the E major scale over the top of the chord. Cool you think. Then the chord changes to A major and you continue playing in E major as you normally do. Most people will "sence" a change in the song. You feel that the music is a little different, but unsure why.

Well, modes take advantage of that feeling. So, lets start on the A major chord and right from the start you solo in E Major. Bingo, you are playing in A Lydian.

So what, you say. The key to using modes (IMHO) is to look at what is "different" between A Lonian (aka major) and A Lydian.

Only one note. Instaid of D, you have D#, which causing the A major chord to sound like A Maj Dim 5. ie: The D# is the 5th of A flatted.

Anyway, thats how I think of it. Lots of people look at modes differently and get different sounds from their interpretations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfDKc_i3dRI
carlsnow  
15 Apr 2010 09:06 | Quote
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
United States
Lessons: 2
Karma: 23
^ ^ @adelaideguitar ^ ^

NICE Video man! (and i NEVER say that hahaha ...)
VERY emotive and well-played!(...or that)
(Rec-Wise; i aint crazy about DI or that Verb, but WTF? - how picky can i be?)
anyways..
Two thumbs up from this ole Geezer!!

RAWK!
Cs


Global Disclaimer :
Carl Snow is an old, jaded & slightly bitter old man who cannot be held accountable for anything, much less his opinionatedly opinionated opinions or those of his imaginary friends. We sincerely apologize if this Carl Snow and/or its behavior have infected you or others with its ugly brain and its juices.
adelaideguitar  
16 Apr 2010 05:23 | Quote
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Australia
Karma: 3
@carlsnow
Thanks man. yea, im not a reverb/di fan either, but im in a little flat atm.

If I could dream, I would have a small farm with a custom built studio on it, with a pile of amps all setup and miked in a sound proof room. There would be a drum room and bass amps and a stack of guitars.

The studio would have a bar and a pool room. Even some rehersal space. I'd open it for free to local musicians.

The recording setup would be preset. ie: one perfect recording setup for rock bands. And just play music out to the local sheep and cows grazing in the fields.

There would be a outdoor bon fire area and tons of camping space. O, and a fridge full of food. Maybe a local beach too.

Arr yessss. Dam these virtual amps and di recording!
carlsnow  
16 Apr 2010 05:54 | Quote
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
United States
Lessons: 2
Karma: 23
@adelaideguitar

...MMM ... i think i've had that dream myself a few thousand times lol


RAWK!
Cs

Reinhardt  
19 Apr 2010 10:07 | Quote
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
South Africa
Karma: 8
@adelaideguitar is the youtube name epiphonegear yours? cuz u commented on one of my videos on youtube :)
gx1327  
19 Apr 2010 13:26 | Quote
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
United States
Karma: 9
this both helps clarify and confuses me a little bit. basically i'm just learning the major scale patterns. because that same pattern of E major is also, as you say, A lydian. i don't personally see the point in learning the pattern to play the x mode of a scale. it's the exact same as the major scale pattern, just transposed up a few frets. so if you learn the major scale pattern at all positions of the fretboard, and you want to play a different mode, you just, in essence, play a different major scale (along with different start/stop point).

yeah?
KicknGuitar  
19 Apr 2010 20:22 | Quote
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Lessons: 6
Karma: 1
gx1327 says:
it's the exact same as the major scale pattern, just transposed up a few frets.


The order of the notes played will change their mode, or "mood." As you pointed out, it's different starting points and ends. However I'm not sure if this is as effective as learning their formulas/patterns.

Once you play each mode on the same root note, you'll hear the notes (for me this is how it clicked).
You will then see how powerful modes can be, (you've already noted they share a similar form, so learning the new pattern shouldn't be as much of a burden as say learning the Melodic Minor6 Pentatonic scale).
Admiral  
23 Apr 2010 14:40 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
yeh, gx, basically you just shift the majorscale pattern around and playing that over a different chord (Tonal centre) will make your brain and ear kinda connect it to this center instead of the actual root of the scale you are playing. So just shifting the patterns around will give you different modes IF applied correctly over the right chords!
adelaideguitar  
24 Apr 2010 07:41 | Quote
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Australia
Karma: 3
@Reinhardt

Yep, im Epiphonegear on youtube. Hope my comment was a nice one. I get a little old and cranky sometimes.

Its a small world. Well, kinda.
adelaideguitar  
24 Apr 2010 08:13 | Quote
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Australia
Karma: 3
@gx1327

Kinda. Just because you start playing C major starting on a note other than C, doesn't make it a mode change. imo.

A mode requires a bass note. ie: Playing a C major over a A note gives you a minor sound. You can achieve this either with another instrument or by using a open A note and playing C major at the same time. Satch demos this in one of his videos. He calls it a pedal tone, or pedal point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedal_point

Without that pedal tone, yes, it is hard to tell what mode someone is playing.

You can also express a mode but emphasis on a chosen note of a melody. ie: by starting or stopping on a note will place emphasis on that note.



|-------------|-------------|
|-------------|-------------|
|-2--4--5-----|-2--4--5-----|
|-------------|-------------|
|----------3--|----------0--|
|-------------|-------------|


One could argue that this piece of music is in C major. But is it? What if we swapped the bars. Does that mean the music is in A minor?

It really doesn't matter. The point is, when you place emphasis on a note, you effect a pieces tonal center which defines the mode.

Quote:
so if you learn the major scale pattern at all positions of the fretboard, and you want to play a different mode, you just, in essence, play a different major scale


Well, kinda. This is true, but doesn't always work. Unlike piano, the guitar has multiple fretted places for a given pitch. So, a melody can be played many ways, each with its own fingering.

The problem is, because of hammer ons, pull offs, picking patterns and finger strength, its hard to keep all notes equal in volumn. Which effects your ablity to emphasis notes, and hence hard to define the mode sound.

So you might have a lick like this:



|------------------------|
|---8-10-8---------------|
|-9--------9-8-7---------|
|----------------10-7----|
|------------------------|
|------------------------|


Which uses hammer ons a pull offs for speed. If you had to play that using the standard A minor pent patern, you might find it harder to play and it sounds different, even though the notes are the same.

These are just my thoughts. Its cool if people have other views or think this is all horse poop


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