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What do people think about this?

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Afro_Raven  
25 Nov 2009 09:23 | Quote
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Hey all,
So this is a topic entirely unrelated to this site's primary reason for existence, but if you've got the time I'd like you to read this article and get your views on it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/24/hindu-sacrifice-gadhimai-festival-nepal

It's something that I personally find both disturbing and distressing, not just the actions but the reasons why and the logic behind those reasons. However, that's obviously just one guy's opinion, so what do you all think?

Afro
case211  
25 Nov 2009 11:27 | Quote
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I guess as long as they make steak out of the buffalo, ham, pork, and bacon, out of the pigs, gyros out of the lamb, and Chicken McNuggets out of the rooster I'm at ease with it... but I'm not okay with 250,000 of them being killed off, that seems a bit excessive IMO.
That is a lot of killing for just 5 days, I mean, they couldn't have just said "ok, lets kill 25 ______, over the next 5 days", but who's the guy that said "we need to kill 250,000 of everything! in 5 days!"... must've been something Dethklok had a hand in lol
Empirism  
25 Nov 2009 14:05 | Quote
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This is horrible. I cant believe how this kind of rituals are allowed. What I know, Hinduism lead its roots from Vedanta and veda culture behind two thousand years and one of its and its variations central doctrines are that any spiritual rehearsal or ritual that are done with devotion and love with persistent leads self revelation.

I just cant find how offerings serve that purpose. Maybe its old tradition, but oh my god... like old laws there are things that should not be, like this is for sure.

You spoke about logic and reasons, I just cant see any but old tradition that leads people to this nonsense under cover of religion.
I grieve those poor animals that had no choice, like their murderers had.

Empirism
Afro_Raven  
25 Nov 2009 14:54 | Quote
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Well Emp, I'm glad you share my views. Like I say, I find it sickening and frankly it's when things like this happen that I feel a lot less comfortable living in this world.

In terms of reasons for doing this, they are clearly operating out of religious practice. But as far as the logic extends to support that, well I just don't think there is any. I can't believe that people think genocide is unacceptable but something like this is acceptable!
BodomBeachTerror  
25 Nov 2009 14:58 | Quote
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wtheck...
JazzMaverick  
25 Nov 2009 18:12 | Quote
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I can't believe this... it's disgusting. These people are either ignorant or just sick minded. I refuse to even accept this as a religious act... Their frame of mind says that this "god" needs sacrifices in order to stay alive and grant their wishes? What kind of god is that? Argg just thinking about it makes me furious...
Heather  
26 Nov 2009 04:29 | Quote
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Yeah I think it seems wrong. I don't see the need for it.

I admire many morals in Hinduism, despite being agnostic. I love how it's created outcomes like the Chipko movement, their whole theory about life after death and karma. It really has influenced good people. But what agrivates me is although believers seem very tanquil and civilizd and often peaceful about society it all, they also have old fashioned believes I stuggle to understand like this at the same time.

It confuses me. It realy does. I mean, most followers are against things like organ donations and harming any form of life, even trees, because they believe they were all once people. And so should not be treated this way. So that's why I really don't understand why some of them think it's right to sacrifice these animals. It doesn't add up. Surely they'd also believe this could bring them bad karma, like harming an animal in any way under a regular condition?
shredguitar17  
26 Nov 2009 05:48 | Quote
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Not to justify this by any means, but from taking several courses in philosophy and metaphysics I can only conclude that it is no different than why Native Americans or any other Pagan/Non-Pagan sacrifices are followed: Think for a second, your a caveman/woman and you just killed a living thing. Now, the natural way your mind is going to defend itself form the bombardment of sadness, depression, and regret is to think of that dead animal as a higher being giving you life.

So, why do they kill like this? Because it is a natural defense mechanism to prevent emotions from overcoming sense and instinct. In laymans terms, they worship sacrifices to justify their actions of their previous hunt/kill.

Why do they sacrifice so many? Is a different question, and is probably what they were taught as children. Why does their logic allow them to proceed this way? Because as a child the mind can be taught/programed to think nearly anything whether against logic or not. Which is why major religions, Catholicism, Jeudism, Muslim etc. put so much emphasis on young humans to follow and believe their set ways of life. They mainly do this by scare tactics, ex. Believe in God and proclaim him as your savior and serve in heaven, or SUFFER FOREVER IN HELL.

I only know this because I was Catholic for 16 years and went to Catholic Schools for 12 years. It is why I am Atheist/Agnostic because I went through it all.
deefa  
26 Nov 2009 06:33 | Quote
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It's all about maintaining power. The Nepalese government know that their people are highly religious and as such extremely superstitious. therefore if the country's leaders are seen to support these ancient rituals that are so important to the psychological welfare of the masses, there will be less likelihood of insurgency. Cynical? Very!
Phip  
26 Nov 2009 07:32 | Quote
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deefa says:
there will be less likelihood of insurgency


Well hell man, all they need is TV. Keep them indoors watching Oprah. That's how we do it! Nice sedated citizens glued to the "idiot box".
LOL
Phip
deefa  
26 Nov 2009 08:33 | Quote
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Many a true word spoken in jest my friend! We Westerners are far too cynical to be hooked by 'fire and brimstone' scare tactics, so they befuddle us with TV advertising campaigns instead. I've often wondered if Bill Hicks was assassinated for his views on American politics. Maybe he was getting a bit too close to the truth!
JazzMaverick  
26 Nov 2009 09:00 | Quote
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@shredguitar,

by Native Americans I assume you mean Native Indians, right? If so, they believed that once they killed any animal that they used every part of that animal and not waste it. From their fur to their meat. They appreciated what they were giving and didn't just use it for sport or for sacrifice.

Aside from that, times have changed and such old fashioned sacrifices shouldn't continue. Just like Catholics, that kind of treatment isn't used anymore.

Think like this... if it were humans which were sacrificed the world would be enraged and make more than just a scene big enough for the papers, this would reach all ears - so why is killing another life any different? Because we're better? Personally I don't agree to this. A life is a life and just because we are more advanced doesn't mean other lives don't matter. Those humans are far more ignorant than they realise.
deefa  
26 Nov 2009 09:18 | Quote
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@ JazzMaverick
I couldn't agree more about the sanctity of life (all life, not just human). The sad fact is that we're not all of the same mind, and whether we're 'sophisticated' Westerners or nomadic tribesman and anything/everything in between, blood lust seems to play a large part in the psyche of many. You can see it in fox hunting, hare coursing, dog fighting, bull fighting, bear baiting. You name the country and it will have some kind of national bloodsport along with some half baked excuse to justify its existence.
I think I said in a previous post, evolution is not a level playing field. Some humans are more evolved than others, and the thing that saddens me most is that some of our most 'evolved' humans are the one's who manipulate the short comings of the 'less evolved' for their own ends. these people are called entrepreneurs and politicians!
Empirism  
26 Nov 2009 11:12 | Quote
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Yes deefa, all you say is very true. But my young and northern intolerant mind justify this thing as well as eating dogs, bull fighting and such. There is one thing that is common for all things... Its not fair case. In bull fighting there are several people that makes sure that poor animal is near death before there can be that friggin hero to end it with his weapon. Fox hunting... yeah...

I know that humanity and care of nature and all its inhabitants and plants are long gone, and today we are facing it. Its starting december soon here in north, no snow. Not even real promise of it. I can feel it within the birds, I can sense it in breezes.

Disinterest. Its the mask of humanity and majority of mankind wearing it. Like Afro said "I feel a lot less comfortable living in this world"... It said it all.

And I dont keep myself better, writing this and using google searches daily, I accurate the thing what is invetiable. But atleast I try to care.

Empirism
deefa  
26 Nov 2009 11:38 | Quote
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I know exactly where you're coming from Emp, I also do my best to care. But the way things are going, I feel like I'm just pi**ing in the wind!
Best
Paul
Empirism  
26 Nov 2009 12:29 | Quote
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Aye :D, I often feel the same. But atleast its natural way XD
Schecter_player  
27 Nov 2009 10:31 | Quote
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Just wanted to put my two cents in. If you eat meat, you can't be too angry about this. Tons of animals are slaughtered everyday. The whole thing is stupid, and i disagree with the idea of it. But you can't eat meat and have righteous fury.
BodomBeachTerror  
27 Nov 2009 11:16 | Quote
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its one thing to kill animals to eat, thats partially what they were made for (sorry to the vegitarians) and its completely different to kill thousands of animals just because your "god" told you to
case211  
27 Nov 2009 12:07 | Quote
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yes, very different, especially the mass quantity that they are killing, that's way WAY too much.
Empirism  
27 Nov 2009 12:20 | Quote
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I understand your point Schecter, but some people appreciate the meal they will eat, is it meat or vegetables, in many places where have buddhist tradition forexample, have areas where you cant grow anything. Eat meat or starve, well... but Im sure they have righteous fury for pointless slaughter of animals so I think there are no generalization in this.

Yes, I count that pointless, even it is for honour of their goddess. And what they ask from their gods as an reward for this sacrifice? Selfish things, wishes, wealth and like that goddess is... power?.

Cheers!
Empirism
JazzMaverick  
27 Nov 2009 15:07 | Quote
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@Deefa, I agree with your theories on human evolution and that some are more advanced.

(randomly thinking here) but even though we're human, we cannot seperate ourselves from natural instinct; "the strongest survive" which is even what bacteria does. Which again makes me think that we're still no different from any other life form on this planet, no matter how "productive" we may seem.

@ SP,

I don't agree with you at all. We eat meat, but we don't torture the animals just to get what we want. However I still think it's wrong to kill for any reason, but that again leads us back to being unable to seperate ourselves from natural instinct. We must kill in order to survive. BUT, when it comes to killing in order to grant selfish needs like wishes, they'd be better off wishing on a shooting star, for the outcome will be the same.
Afro_Raven  
27 Nov 2009 15:13 | Quote
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Schecter, I'm not entirely sure you thought your point through here. The animals are not being slaughtered for meat, and although they are being sold onto businesses that will make use of the carcasses this is only an afterthought and not the primary reason for killing them. It is the number they are killing and the reason for doing so that infuriates me so much.

I'm also glad to see many of you agreeing with me here, at least I can put a tiny amount of faith back into humanity...

Afro
JazzMaverick  
27 Nov 2009 15:39 | Quote
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Human kind has always been cruel Afro. Unfortunately... Even now there are men breaking kittens and puppies' legs, leaving them in an alley way to cry so they can lure anyone who hears the cry, then either kills them or takes what he wants. There are constantly brutal stories of humans, we will probably never change as a whole. But adding everyone one together, there are more kind people than cruel (I'd like to think so anyway)
Schecter_player  
28 Nov 2009 00:55 | Quote
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Sorry to all who were offended. I stand by what i said, but let me clarify. Be as angry as you want, I think these acts of sacrifice are disgusting, but unless you're a vegetarian, being angry is slightly hypocritical.

So, am i a hypocrite? Yes, because i love a good cheese burger.
gx1327  
28 Nov 2009 03:08 | Quote
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people have done far worse in the name of religion...


250,000 "animals"? c'mon. how many of you had a hamburger today? i had a roast beef sandwich on wednesday, i had turkey on thursday, i had a chicken sandich tonight. when you think of "a quarter of a million" in your head it sounds like a lot, but when you consider that there are four THOUSAND time that amount of people on the earth, it's really not much...

don't get me wrong, i don't dislike animals... but this isn't anything anger-worthy. you know, mayans used to sacrifice humans... it's true!
deefa  
28 Nov 2009 07:51 | Quote
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@gx Anger worthy? I can't get angry anymore. According to many people we're supposed to be the 'master' race with this incredible huge brain that sets us apart from most other species. But what do we do with it? It's taken nature millions of years to make this planet into something that can sustain life as we know it. In just 400 years we've brought it (and all it's inhabitants) to the very brink of destruction.
Just take a good look at what we are as a species. We actually turn nature up-side down. Where most creatures would cut back on breeding because natures bounty is getting too thin on the ground to support its numbers, we invent new ways to create more life. Where most creatures take only what they need to survive, survival is not good enough for the human animal, we have to PROSPER as well. Six billion humans and rising. All wanting to survive and prosper. Do we really need Albert Einstein to come along and do the maths for us on this one? Are we really so brilliant that we can make this overpopulation problem go away (preferably without hurting anyone's feelings)?
This gx my friend is why we can't carry on having such a cavalier attitude towards the more stupid actions perpetrated by some human society's. The outrage against life that we've witnessed in Nepal is just one case in point.
Guitarslinger124  
28 Nov 2009 08:20 | Quote
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At first glance I would agree that this is a terrible thing. Sure killing 250,000 animals in 5 days is pretty crude, almost like animal genocide. PITA must be going nuts. But does PITA or anyone else say anything about the 2 million turkeys American butchers kill every Thanksgiving? Just some food for thought.

Taking a closer look though, millions if not billions of people have died for the sake or at the stake, of religion. Humans are animals, like it or not. Does 250,000 animals dead for the sake of some religious extremists stand up to billions of people dead? Think, Spanish Inquisition, Civil War, WWI and WWII, Revolutionary War, Holocaust, Africa, Israel and the middle east, OIF 1 through 6, or those 2 million turkeys every year?

The world is a pretty f***** (messed) up place. People kill people, people kill animals, animals kill people. Living things die every day in unimaginable numbers. I'm not a peace monger, I don't condone violence, but I am a realist. The world ain't gonna change. Sure it is a terrible thing, 250,000 animals dead, but such is life. Don't eat turkey on Thanksgiving.

Rock on.
telecrater  
28 Nov 2009 10:45 | Quote
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I really don't see what the big deal is. It's a religious slaughter house and the animals are the sold for processing.

I don't really see what the big deal is. In the USA Approximately 100,000 heads of cattle are killed per day and we slaughter 35 million cows annually and do not all go to human consumption or just for the US. This pales in comparison to to the number of Chicken killed in the USA is around 23 million per day.

case211  
28 Nov 2009 11:07 | Quote
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@guitarslinger

Guitarslinger124 says:
Don't eat turkey on Thanksgiving.


sorry man... too late for me...
DarkRiff  
28 Nov 2009 11:17 | Quote
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here's my opinion

it all actually comes down to what YOUR religion is.

for example, I'm a Christian and believe that after Jesus died and rose again we did not have to sacrifice animals any more for God. they don't believe in the same God, thus they still think they have to sacrifice to enter heaven. and as far as the meat-eating thing goes, Meat is a food given to mankind, I don't find it cruel to eat meat because those animals were pretty much born to die, but there is a limit to what animals to eat. Chicken and Cow = Yes, Cats and Dogs = No. but that's just my opinion.
Heather  
28 Nov 2009 12:12 | Quote
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Just to put a word in, I think it's daft when people say cruelty is okay because it's 'natural'. That's just BS to me. I'll believe eating meat is natural when modern day human beings can catch and kill a cow with their bear hands and eat it raw (THE natural way) and NOT get food poisoning. We're humans, not hominids now. We don't 'need' to eat meat anymore, it's not 'natural' to captivate, domesticate, cook and kill these animals with weapons.

Now don't get the wrong idea, I'm not argueing and trying to convert you all into vegetarians like me. But if you think the cruelty that comes with killing livestock for human purposes is okay strictly becuase it's 'natural' I advise you to re-think that.

Anyway, reading through I think this thread has really gone off it's own topic. You should really be considering the Hindu beliefes and morals on this issue, if you actually do want to try and understand it. Again, hindus are usually vegetarians and are very much against any form of animal suffering, even chopping down trees, because they are strong believers of karma. They believe they will achieve NEGATIVE karma for performing any of these actions because they've murdered what was once human and is a potential human being for an after life. So, what I think the real question is, why do these particular followers who've celebrated this sacrafice think it will please the Gods?
Guitarslinger124  
28 Nov 2009 14:01 | Quote
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Heather says:
Now don't get the wrong idea, I'm not argueing and trying to convert you all into vegetarians like me. But if you think the cruelty that comes with killing livestock for human purposes is okay strictly becuase it's 'natural' I advise you to re-think that.!


Sharks eat small fish. Lions eat elephants. Tigers eat antelope. Humans eat cows.
Heather  
28 Nov 2009 14:33 | Quote
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And those examples of actual predators you just use I feel don't make a valid point. They actually catch, kill and consume those animals without any problems, we have to tame animals we eat through breeding and training, use weapons to kill an animal and cook it to eat it safely. How is that natural? I'm sorry but it's nothing alike. I don't see humans jumping on cows like tigers, biteing their necks to kill them and just ripping savagely into the meat. I just don't think we're meant to. It's like saying a horse should eat meat just because actual born predators can. It doesn't make sense. Plus, we can survive without meat. We're also aware of global warming, we should know better then to eat cow in particular. All the methane gas those breed livestock produce isn't good.
carlsnow  
28 Nov 2009 14:56 | Quote
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another reason i hate thanksgiving. the widespread-wholesale slaughter of inhumanely-raised (a cube for life) Turkeys on steroids and God only knows what else.

and (Pop's Biz = Conveyor Belt etc) i have been to many a slaughterhouse , to imagine that we treat our future food-sources any better than anyone else is incredibly naive. we raise them in horrid filth and disallow movement (fattens em up, like Video games do to humans).

and Telecrater is right about the amount of food we, the Fattest nation on earth, raise inhumanly for fast-food(ugh)and breakfast and dinner is almost as obscene as the amount of food we WASTE.

next "thanksgiving" i'm eating a Fat-American-Human!

Cs




case211  
28 Nov 2009 15:08 | Quote
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I love the yams, that's about it.

@heather

We're omnivores, we can eat meat and vegetables, but I also feel that climbing the food chain to eat vegetables is not good for the future of the human race.

I feel that this topic is not ever going to end either, its a double edged sword both sides have positives and both have negatives, but neither outweigh the opposition.

Though if we could kill a water buffalo like a lion, that would be pretty awesome.
Heather  
28 Nov 2009 15:49 | Quote
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case211 says:


I feel that this topic is not ever going to end either, its a double edged sword both sides have positives and both have negatives, but neither outweigh the opposition.


I certainly agree with that. But I will never accept the theory that we're natural omnivores. We only have four canine teeth. Many animals that don't eat any meat at all like male horses only four in the same places of their mouths too. I believe personally that like them, we once used our four small canines to protect ourselves from our own species and some predators through nipping. (And just to make it clear, I know we DON'T do that now, haha!) I don't think us eating meat is good for any race including humans. I don't know about you, but I feel we've evolved away from that and should still be in the process, look at hominids. They were clearly designed to eat meat, they had the teeth for it. But modern humans don't, I think we were meant to be moving away from the omnivore family. Plus, I've been veggie since I was 8. I've weightlifted and ran every day for the past 3 years. I still get the proteins I need. I don't understand why it's a problem not to eat meat.

What I hate is mainly how the livestock are treated. And how people don't give a damn. They get upset about cats and dogs kept in cramped living conditions, starved, abused and skinned in places such as Japan. They hate seeing them in fear and pain. But if it's a battery hen or anything else less appealing they seem to think it's okay. I've seen pigs get litterally kicked off of trucks on their way to slaughter, cows teathered by the legs and pulled around alive, chickens beaks get ripped off, geese get force fed until their stomaches explode and people think it's 'okay?' They could at least make sure their food comes from a farm where the animals can express natural behaviour, recieve a healthy diet and aren't kept in squalor.

I don't get people. They think little fluffy things should live in perfect harmony with the five freedoms, but if it's anything that doesn't look cute to them but still feels pain and fear it's just fine to cause it unnecessary suffering.
DarkRiff  
28 Nov 2009 16:51 | Quote
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@heather

well see that statement above is based on the theory of evolution (at least from what I can tell). Not that i'm picking on you, just using you as an example.

Proving my theory about religion and this topic. but I'm also saying not all evolution believing people are vegetarians. Just saying that there are more likely to be.

But please let me make this clear I AM NOT TRYING TO OFFEND ANYBODY.
deefa  
28 Nov 2009 19:06 | Quote
Joined: 22 Dec 2007
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Can someone please explain to me what the religious sacrifice of countless thousands of sentient creatures have to do with vegetarianism? My lifetime has been just about equally split between being an omnivore in my early years and a vegetarian in my later half.
Also, can someone explain to me why I felt such a terrible sense of guilt when, as a child, I accidentally shot and killed a sparrow with a catapult yet others, with seemingly no feelings of remorse whatsoever, can participate in the slaughter in question? These aren't trick questions, this is a genuine need to understand. I'm not totally against killing, like most people I'd do whatever I had to to defend me and my own, but I fear that the taking of life would scar me forever. Could it be my atheism that makes me put a higher value on life?
case211  
28 Nov 2009 20:47 | Quote
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I don't actually know what humans are supposed to be along the lines of dieting(vegan or carnivore or both), but all I know for sure, is that it is a choice of the individual. I like the taste of meat when it is cooked and prepared the way I like it, but I don't like raw meat like sushi(got sick from it once), and I do enjoy a good salad every once in a while, and it's totally up to me(right now) what I eat more of or equal amounts of greens or meat.

anyways, back on topic, if it's someones religion, we can't really say that they are wrong for doing it because we believe something else, but we may not like what they are doing and try to say it's wrong anyways.
So whereas i don't like the slaughter of animals like this, I don't think that I can say that they are right or wrong in this action, because I'm not of that religion(or any for that matter) and cannot say mine is better or that they are wrong for not following my religion(again, I don't really have one). wow, that was off topic...
gx1327  
29 Nov 2009 03:58 | Quote
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
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silversun pickups.
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