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modes nomenclature questions

Music Theory
gx1327  
24 Sep 2009 09:05 | Quote
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
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i have a question regarding the names of scales in different modes.

so for instance, the G major scale is G A B C D E F# (G). this is the Ionian mode of the G major scale.

the second mode is the Dorian scale, which is A B C D E F# G (A).

is this referred to as "G Dorian" or "A Dorian"?

bonus question -- i have seen some riffs and licks written on this site (and elsewhere) that say they are written in, say, "C Lydian". but note-for-note, C Lydian contains the same notes as C Major/Ionian. so if you write a lick based on a scale, what does the mode matter?

you know what i mean? if i write a lick that uses all the notes from the C Lydian scale, all those notes are also in the C Dorian, C Ionian, etc. etc. scale. now it's different if i wrote it in C Minor or a C Blues scale...?

thanks!
-nsr
case211  
24 Sep 2009 09:47 | Quote
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This would be referred to as A dorian. Because it contains the same notes as G Major, but G Dorian is a different mode all together.
and also you would take the root(starting) note and use that note plus its degree (1,2,3,etc.).
gx1327  
24 Sep 2009 10:59 | Quote
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
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cool. so G Dorian would be... G A A# C D E F (G)? that is, the second mode of the F Major scale? got it now.

i think this answers my second question, too... if the notes of G Major /= the same notes in G Dorian, then a riff or lick written in G Dorian would actually have the same notes as F Major and not G Major

but then why is it different than a riff written in F Major?
JazzMaverick  
24 Sep 2009 13:45 | Quote
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For the sake of musical arguements and rules, we would call it Bb and not A# in the key of F.

F Major and G Major are different because of the notes.

The Major is the scale - the modes are just an alteration of that scale and key. You're only playing on a different note of that scale and because we've noticed it creates it's own sound we've called them modes.

case211  
24 Sep 2009 14:56 | Quote
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+1 Jazz

I don't know how to explain things very well
gx1327  
24 Sep 2009 15:45 | Quote
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
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yeah after writing out the F major scale i figured A# would be Bb but i figured it's a moot point since 1.5=1.5. i'm still at the point where every semitone on the fretboard is a #...

F Major and G Major are different. yes. G Major and G Dorian are the same scale played on a different starting point. different mode. i get that.

what i'm talking about is if you go to the "guitar licks" tab on this site one of the first licks is "Mixolydian Lick in C". it appears that the notes used in this lick are C, D, E, G, A#/Bb, and F.

These are the same notes as in F Major (whoa, coincidence!), because C Mixolydian is just the F Major scale, started on C instead of F.

so my question is, what makes this lick "C Mixolydian" and not "F Major"? is it because the lick starts on a C?

also, you mentioned "key". how does playing in a different mode affect what key you are in? obviously the G Major scale is in the key of G. is the G Dorian scale in the key of G? or is it in the key of F (since the G Dorian scale contains all the same notes as F Major?)

phew. a few days ago i had very little grasp on this but i think i'm starting to put the pieces together, thanks again guys
BodomBeachTerror  
24 Sep 2009 15:47 | Quote
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C mixolydian is a mode that is part of the F Major scale. G Dorian would be in the key of F major as well
case211  
24 Sep 2009 15:57 | Quote
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@gx1327

G major and G dorian are different notes. Just as a side note, every major scale has its 'relative minor', the minor scale within the major that has the same notes. This is also true with the different modes. If you are playing out of C major(to keep it simplistic) your second degree would NOT be C Dorian, but D Dorian. You take the starting note and then the degree gives it its name. So G Major and G Dorian are not the same notes all the way start to finish, they may share G but not likely to share the 6 others, maybe up to 5 but not more. This is because G Dorian is the second degree of a different Major scale, hence different notes within the mode/scale.
And to answer your question about the C mixo. and F Major, the mixolydian mode gives a different feel to whatever it is that you are going to play. For example, if you play C, D, E, F, C(notes not chords) it is probably going to sound happy. If you play F, G, A, B, F its more than likely going to have a different feel to it(depending on the persons ears and their view of music).

and BBT pretty much nailed your last question.

Hope this helps
Case
RA  
25 Sep 2009 00:20 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
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diatonic major/parent major scale

Ionian-1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Dorian-1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7
Phrygian-1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Lydian-1,2,3,4#,5,6,7
Mixolydian-1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Aeolian-1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Locrian-1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7


Diatonic "in C"

(c)Ionian-C,D,E,F,G,A,B
(d)Dorian-D,E,F,G,A,B,C
(e)Phrygian-E,F,G,A,B,C,D
(f)Lydian-F,G,A,B,C,D,E
(g)Mixolydian-G,A,B,C,D,E,F
(a)Aeolian-A,B,C,E,D,F,G
(b)Locrian-B,C,D,E,F,G,A

Parallel(have same tonic)

(c)Ionian-C,D,E,F,G,A,B
(c)Dorian-C,D,bE,F,G,A,bB
(c)Phrygian-C,bD,bE,F,G,bA,bB
(c)Lydian-C,D,E,F#,G,A,B
(c)Mixolydian-C,D,E,F,G,A,bB
(c)Aeolian-C,D,bE,F,G,bA,bB
(c)Locrian-C,bD,bE,F,bG,bA,bB


Now there is no confusion on what notes are in what I will answer some questions.

gx1327 says:
so my question is, what makes this lick "C Mixolydian" and not "F Major"? is it because the lick starts on a C?


what makes it C Mixolydain is the b7. You see the key in understanding modes is in the intervals. The fact that it starts/ends on such and such a note is of no point(to the dismay of what i call "blanket scalers", ones you play on one scale thought out). what does matter is what notes are being played and how. Melody(horizontal movement, note then note, note melody of song) and Harmony(vertical movement,note with note) must work with each other. The easiest way to do this is to play an arpeggio(notes in the chord in a order, broken chord). well people tend to get bored with that idea then play those notes, that's say C major triad(C,E,G) in any order or patten that chose regardless of the chords formant(keeping in rhythm of course). Well it seems that doesn't help with the boredom so people think why not add more tones, But what ones??. Well lets add the tones from the mode(s) that the chord fits into. But we can't just through in any tones. we need to keep harmony and melody going with each other(in consonance or dissonance whatever you need). So in the Mixolydian we can add the b7(bB) and the 2(D) into the mix to help mix up are melodies(not structure again) and they will keep in nice terms with our harmony. Well this time why not use the Ionian mode. we will use the 7(B) this time which will mix thing up a little bit different from before, and why not used the 4(F). Well it seems with the 4(f) we run into a little problem. Melody whys there is nothing wrong it doesn't hurt the structure at all, but when looking into harmony we hit a wall. The chord where playing over C major triad (C,E,B) contains an E, and E and F are a Dissonant Interval(Play E and F and hear it to find out). So 4(f) may not always be the best to use.
now this is just a look into the HUGE Theory behind this(that and they differ between styles and/or genres). and the 4th is really not a "do not play note" but more of a "handle with care note" T Monk played with 4ths all the time as most be-pop does, along with folk bands, Beatles "hard days night" had, Gsus4 right smack in the beginning, but there uses (can)change in theory terms. There are many "handle with care notes" in each mode scale whatever, but even a so called "nice" note like the 2nd can go bad if played wrong with the harmony/melody. This was just a window not a understanding you can't grasp what I'm trying to convey with just this. I hope you can take this further and expand upon it. maybe try recording a chord then playing the corresponding mode/scale over it. First, just the scale in order holding each note, the play around with different ways of hearing each note. a lot times the patten there put in matters, like the 4th is dissonant, but quickly followed with a 3rd it is very pleasing. also this to many different types of music and see what they do.

gx1327 says:
also, you mentioned "key". how does playing in a different mode affect what key you are in? obviously the G Major scale is in the key of G. is the G Dorian scale in the key of G? or is it in the key of F (since the G Dorian scale contains all the same notes as F Major?)


again as i have said before scales to not directly effect keys. look at blues in the key of C. you got C7 to F7 to G7. you can very well play C,F, and G Mixolydian and the key doesn't change. you can play a ii-V7-I in the key of C, D minor to G7 to C major. playing D Dorian then G Mixolydian then C Ionian and never change key. However you can be in the Key of A minor, based of the Aeolian scale, then
modulate to E minor, based of Aeolian scale. Then back to the original key to the Key of D minor,based off of the Dorian Mode.


case211  
25 Sep 2009 06:47 | Quote
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
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+1 RA
gx1327  
25 Sep 2009 07:24 | Quote
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
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RA says:
what makes it C Mixolydain is the b7. You see the key in understanding modes is in the intervals. The fact that it starts/ends on such and such a note is of no point(to the dismay of what i call "blanket scalers", ones you play on one scale thought out). what does matter is what notes are being played and how.


okay i understand a lot of this, i'm just looking for a nomenclature question here... i understand that the C Mix. has a b7. that is, instead of

C D E F G A B C (C Major), it's
C D E F G A Bb C (C Mixolydian)

BUT, F Major is:

F G A Bb C D E F < these are the same seven notes as in C Mixolydian. if you omit the "starting/stopping" point and just play these seven notes in order then what is the difference between F Major and C Mixolydian?

if the only difference is -HOW- these notes are played, then can we substitute the name as we would A# for Bb? they are the same scale, but depending on how we use them (and what they're used with) we could call it chicken fried steak or country fried steak...

wow that was a weak analogy but it was the best i could come up with this early in the morning!

JazzMaverick  
25 Sep 2009 08:14 | Quote
Joined: 28 Aug 2008
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C Mixolydian has a b7 ONLY because of it's positioins! It is still using the EXACT SAME NOTES as F Major. They're just names to make it easier to understand what mode we're using in certain areas. It's difficultto understand if you just see the theory, you have to see the positions to truly understand, I'd say take a look at my lesson: "Major Scale and Modes Within" to understand more but RA has explained it well enough. Should you want to see picture examles then I'd take a look at that lesson anyway.


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