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Tritone chord question...

Beginners
wufunk  
25 Aug 2009 14:39 | Quote
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Karma
Hey, was just wondering something on tritone chords...

If I play this B Minor chord..

http://all-guitar-chords.com/index.php?ch=B&mm=m&v=1

then play this F Minor chord...

http://all-guitar-chords.com/index.php?ch=F&mm=m&v=3

Would that be a proper tritone substitution?

Thanks.
madman3123  
26 Aug 2009 02:00 | Quote
Joined: 08 May 2008
United Kingdom
Karma: 1
I haven't clicked your links but from my understanding what tritone substitution can be is to swap one 7 chord for another with the same tritone.

for example in a full cadence in Cmajor scale is C F G7 C

now that G7 contains the tritone B-F (G7 notes are: G B D F)

Now we can replace the G7 with another 7 chord with the same tritone in it. Now when i find a chord with same tritone it can be a bit of guesswork but i think now thinking of it I found a way. in G7 B is the third. Now i mearly have to find a chord with F as the third.

And that chord is C#7.

So in our full cadence we can turn it from:

C F G C to C F C#7 C

I'm not sure if this would still be a full cadence but it is deffinately a cadence.

Now there may be other forms of tritone subsitution but I think that is a more used example. However let the other members verdict on what I've said be the decider, I don't post here often but I know they all offer good advice and help- infact I only posted here as this was something I learnt the other week and was kind of testing myself.

Anyway good luck and if you need anything explained like cadences just ask. :)
RA  
26 Aug 2009 13:24 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
yeah madman's got it. tritone subs are done with dominate chords. that being said you can do what ever the hell you want.

the theory behind it goes as follows.

the most important tones in a chord are the 3rd (major/minor) and 7th(dominate/major). The root is generally consider the first to go because of the base player. Then The 5th due to it being implied in most chords(exception dimi aug, alt) and the rest have more exceptions due to melody and chord structure but were not talking about extended harmony here so we will skip it. So that being said why not sub a chord with the same two notes (B and F) in it. well that is exactly what your doing with a tritone sub and it leads in to the tonic whit a base chromatic(C# to C).

@madman
I'll take away the guess work for you. If you at G7 and you what the tritone sub get the titone of G and make it dominate which is C#7. If you don't you all intervals by heart(you should) hopefully you know your 5ths. so get the 5th of G which is D and flatten it to C#(Db). A to E(5th) then to Eb make it a Eb7 and your done.
But that being said the most important part of anything with chords is to know what your doing with your voices. And as you found out with a tritone sub your flipping your 3rds and 7ths DON'T FORGET THAT.
and when learning a new progression/substitutions watch your voices

also I don't know what your getting at with full cadence(I'm not saying your labeling something wrong music theory is notorious for have one thing with 20 different names) but a perfect cadence is a Dominate 5th to a tonic triad of a G7 to a C major. Form it we get many things Scales, harmonic minor being one, and many different sub theorys like secondary dominates.
madman3123  
27 Aug 2009 01:32 | Quote
Joined: 08 May 2008
United Kingdom
Karma: 1
The lesson I learnt it from had things you could use instead of the IV and the V in the full cadence and in replacement of those chords

for example you can replace the IV with a ii because they have two notes in common so that chord is a strong subsitute. The example had a perfect cadence and would play both with the IV and with the ii to show the different sound.

It then went onto secondary dominants and tritone substion and augmented chords (french, german, italien).

I just thought that the cadence was a good example to show it with as i learnt it easier when I had an example to play

and thank you for removing my guessword :D
wufunk  
29 Aug 2009 15:05 | Quote
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Karma
So, there is a difference between a tritone and tritone substitution right? I guess I might have worded my original post wrong.

Say you just go from a B Minor chord to an F Minor chord, that would be a tritone, correct?

Also, do you HAVE to use 7 chords (*m7 or *7) to successfully use a tritone substituion during a chord progression or can you use just a simple I IV V VI progression using just minor/major chords in a certain key and then replace one of those chords with a tritone from the original?
RA  
29 Aug 2009 23:22 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
A tritone is an interval not a chord progression. It is the #4 or the b5. It gets its name because it is 3(tri) Tones or wholesteps away from the tonic. it is the most dissonant interval in the 12 tone equal-temperament system getting the iconic name of "the devil's integer".

you have to use Dominate chords no major(and all extensions) or minors(and all extensions) in a "proper" tritone sub. the reason being as stated above they contain the tritone interval specifically in the 3rd and 7th voices. The two roots of the chords being tritones themselves is just how the tritone cycle works,(or should i say tritone flip flop) it has little to do with what actually going on. that being said you can do whatever you want to do, but a tritone substitution is what was talked about above.


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