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Scale question...

Beginners
wufunk  
29 Jun 2009 22:37 | Quote
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Karma
Hey,

I'm trying to practice some scales, starting with C Major and I have a question.

Say you're starting with the 1st fret on the B string so you have the root C, then you follow the next step to the 3rd fret on the B, for D, then go down and play open E, along with F and G, where do you go from there to finish out that octave of the scale?

I'm use to the piano setup with each 12 semitones being an octave higher than the 12 before so I'm still trying to figure out how the scales work going up the fret board...I'm trying to do it by ear and I can tell the difference sometimes but, I would like some tips if possible.

Thanks.
JustJeff  
29 Jun 2009 22:41 | Quote
Joined: way back
United States
Lessons: 2
Karma: 21
You'll go up to the 5th fret on the E string for an A, 7th fret for a B, and then the octave at the 8th fret for a C.

There should be a lesson on this site about the CAGED system. That will teach you other scales to learn on the guitar. Of course, that may be jumping ahead: you may just want to give it a look.

Hope that helps!
wufunk  
29 Jun 2009 22:54 | Quote
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Karma
Thank you for the very fast reply!

So, let me get this straight...

E|----0-1-3-5-7-8|
B|1-3------------|
G|---------------|
D|---------------|
A|---------------|
E|---------------|

That would be all in the same range/octave? For example if you played on a piano C Major starting from middle C and then went through the C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C...it's the same thing (although in different pitches possibly depending on the fret/root C you start with)?
Admiral  
30 Jun 2009 02:02 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
Well, i would in your position just look at a "map" of the fretboard. Its much easier, because figuring all out by ear will take longer.

And yes, the notes you are playing are C,D,E,F,G,A,B and C again in this particular order.
And yes again, its the same thing voer and over again, just a different octave.
wufunk  
30 Jun 2009 02:33 | Quote
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Karma
I'm trying to figure out some stuff now...what's the differences between some of the closer variations on the Chord Scale tool on this site?

For example,

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=+0&scch=C&scchnam=Major&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1

compared to

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=2&scch=C&scchnam=Major&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1

..There are some of the same notes in both so I get confused. Sorry, I'm just use to the way a keyboard is setup and obviously a very ignorant beginner in the way of the fretboard, lol.

I appreciate the replies greatly though!
JustJeff  
30 Jun 2009 08:57 | Quote
Joined: way back
United States
Lessons: 2
Karma: 21
I don't want to bombard you with information, so I'll try to explain this to you as simple as possible.

C major is a key, just like A minor is also a key. C major has many relative keys that have the same notes as it. For example, A minor has the same chords and notes as C major. When we play a scale, usually we start from the tonic. A tonic is the 1st degree of a scale, so in C major, the tonic is C. In A minor, the tonic is now an A.

For any given key, there are 7 different notes. As well, there are also 7 different modes that you can play in. Each mode has the same notes to the relative keys, but starts on a different note (The tonic is different). So, for position 1, we are starting on an E, this is E Phrygian. E Phrygian is a relative mode of C Major, they have the same notes and chords, just a different tonic so everything will resolve differently.

The 2nd position is G, which is G Mixolydian. The same applies here: The tonic is now a G instead of a C, but they are the same notes.

Hopefully this doesn't confuse you too much. I would suggest reading up on Scale Structure and Chord structure, then move onto Modal theory. After that, all of this should make sense.
Admiral  
30 Jun 2009 09:18 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
Ye, JustJeff perfectly explained everything again! Modes and Scales and so on are very fine tools, but I did a very big mistake in this topic. I started learning all the stuff without knowing how to use it. If you thoroughly know how to use a simple Pentatonic scale, you can already pull of a great solo. The topic you are touching on is huge and many guitarists have spent their lifetime on it.
So start simple and then move on!
wufunk  
30 Jun 2009 15:16 | Quote
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Karma
Ah, thank you for the detailed explanation.

So, say you start on the 3rd fret of the A string for the root C and play the Major scale up the strings till you end up on first fret of B (another C), is that second C you hit still going to be played in the Ionian mode or will that be another mode?

I'm having a hard time grasping the thought of knowing what root C to start on if you're wanting to play a certain range of note frequencies/octaves. Like, if I wanted to play every single possible C Major scale on the fretboard starting with 3rd fret A all the way to 13th fret B with all the pitches going in order as such they would on a piano.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I hope it does though.

Thanks again for wasting your time on me! haha ;)
Admiral  
30 Jun 2009 17:17 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
Lessons: 1
Karma: 12
Well if you start from the C one octave above you are starting over again, so you basically are still playing "Ionian". You would only play another mode (lets take the Dorian mode (the one after Ionian)) You would have to play the Cmajor scale starting from D to the D one octave above, and resolve into a D instead of A C in the end of your phrase.

And I dont think I understand your second question fully, but i think you are asking where the other notes up to the end of the fretboard for the C-Major scale are? Or not?..
wufunk  
30 Jun 2009 18:41 | Quote
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Karma
Yeah, that is what my second question is. I try looking at the C Major scale on the guitar scales part of this website, however I get confused as to what notes are suppose to be in that series of notes for a particular octave of C Major.
RA  
30 Jun 2009 19:19 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
well first let me point out something that jeff mentioned but i want to highlight and that the "CAGED" system. Basically it is one of the many ways of thinking/seeing in position playing and my favorite. The guitar is played in positions where the middle finger will move up and down but never changes frets. In each position you get two octaves and a perfect fourth. So unlike the piano the guitar should be looked at up and down vertically not horizontal. Now part of being a good guitar player is being able to move up and down the neck going in and out of positions but this is where you should start.

to help you out i recommend going to
>--http://www.justinguitar.com/---<
it is a very good free site that will help you out. It is fairly easy to navigate so I'm not going to point out exactly where to go, but if you run into any problems don't hesitate to ask.

Now to state one difference between the piano and the guitar. the piano has giving up some of the natural math in musical sound for simplicity. As richard lloyd calls it "the diatonic major scale in a box". basically each note is put into a cage and when you press the key it is aloud to sing. The guitar, however, is almost sonically free(frets control it). so the math in string divisions is still there and active(on each string and string to string). So notes appear more than once on it. For example, your obviously trying to start at middle c(C4). C4 shows up five different spots and has 16 different fingerings. Along with that remember the guitar is a bass instrument is goes down to E2(only a third higher then a cello[also a octave lower then a Violin provided you got 24 frets and excluding harmonics]). So unlike what you do with the piano start in the bass not the treble hand. you can still keep the key of C but most guitarist like E or A because it is easier on the guitar where C is better for the piano. and I'm going to guess you can read nation while this might be ahead of the game I'll tell you anyway the guitar is marked on the treble G staff a octave lower so the piano's C4 is guitar's C3.

Sorry about out of order but I type too slow for my hands to keep up with my mind. But I'm going to move on too your links and explain them in the "CAGED" system. First, each letter in "CAGED" stands for the chord shape in open position.(the scale tool site doesn't use "CAGED" so you have to bare with me) Your first link shows the C major scale in about "C" position. while the second link shows it in about "A" position. I suggest you stay in Open position( using un-freted strings) so for the key of C your going to use, the first link, C position or as the website i gave you says "C Grip". Now you can Start At the third fret of the A string C3, but it would be better to Start at Open E because remember the guitar is in positions.

my last thing to show if you don't know already is guitarist unlike piano players start with six or five voiced triads while you would only do three voiced triads

JazzMaverick  
30 Jun 2009 19:37 | Quote
Joined: 28 Aug 2008
United Kingdom
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Licks: 37
Karma: 47
Moderator
From the way you're looking at the guitar it seems like you're trying to play it based off of the basics of notation or classical. STOP! (Hammer time) You're a complete beginner at guitar, so it's important you learn the scales (major for now) on all the strings and in the traditional box position. This will, for now, give you something to 'see' on the guitar and be the start to your guidelines.

I strongly recommend checking out my lesson 'Major Scales and Modes Within' and look at the first position only. But if that lesson is confusing to you then look at my 'Music Theory - Grade 1' lesson and scroll down to where I talk about the major scale. I've shown the position on both the piano and the guitar. The paragraph underneith will tell you how to position your hand when playing it on the guitar.

Once you've learnt it in that position, you should learn the rest of the modes I talk about.
wufunk  
30 Jun 2009 21:53 | Quote
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Karma
Ah okay, thank you. I think I'm getting it. That last picture on your Major Scales and Modes Within, is that JUST C Major in Ionian?

Another question: Can you use the CAGED system with other scales than Major such as natural minors and also different keys than C? Also, what about B and F?
JazzMaverick  
1 Jul 2009 10:45 | Quote
Joined: 28 Aug 2008
United Kingdom
Lessons: 24
Licks: 37
Karma: 47
Moderator
The Major Scale is the Ionian scale. Later on you'll understand that all those other positions I've listed actually originate from the Major scale, just played in a different position. But don't worry about that right now. But yeah, that last picture is the Major scale position all across the fretboard.

And for CAGED info, check out:

Empirism's CAGED lesson

Ontop of everything RA just said, which was awesome. It's now down to concentration, and self discovery, try and work through some things on your own and you'll become a proud independant musician. :D
wufunk  
1 Jul 2009 19:55 | Quote
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Karma
Thank you so much for the replies and help of my newbie ways, haha.

A question on the CAGED system, say if you take a look at Empirism's image in his lession and he uses the chords that use the first 3 frets or so, where does the next C chord overlap that first D chord?

Thank you again.


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