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Question about modes

Music Theory
Cileth  
14 Jun 2009 22:38 | Quote
Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Karma: 1
So say I'm playing in the F major scale. If I want to make it sound phrygian would I play F phrygian or A phrygian(A phrygian being a part the F major scale?).

I'm just confused about this because all of the lessons i've seen the lesson goes up the major scale saying something like F is ionian G is dorian A is phrygian ect...

I dont know if that makes sense but could someone help me out?
telecrater  
14 Jun 2009 23:21 | Quote
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
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Hey Cileth,

I'd recomend a couple of lessons by our very own members.

the first by JazzMaverick...

Major Scale and Modes Within

The second by Afro_Raven...

Modes and How to Use Them

Let us know if you still have questions but I keep refering back to these two lessons.
les_paul  
15 Jun 2009 00:40 | Quote
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If you play F phrygian you won't be in the F major scale anymore you would be in Db or C# (however you want to look at it). I'm going to say go with A phrygian.

I have been wrong about this stuff before but there are a lot of people here more knowledgeable than me. they will smite me if I told you wrong ; )
Cileth  
15 Jun 2009 01:49 | Quote
Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Karma: 1
Hmm well I gather from these lessons that it would indeed be an A phrygian mode I would have to play.
But i'm a little confused. How do notes get sharpened or flattened in some of these modes? I thought the modes had all of the same notes o.O
BodomBeachTerror  
15 Jun 2009 11:56 | Quote
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if each mode had the same notes all the modes would be the same
JustJeff  
15 Jun 2009 12:16 | Quote
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BodomBeachTerror says:
if each mode had the same notes all the modes would be the same


You are sort of correct and sort of incorrect here.


The reason why notes are sharpened and flattened is if you are changing from one scale to the next... not with relative modes.

For example. Let's say I'm playing in C major, that means modal-wise, I am in C Ionian. Now, let's say I want to play C Mixolydian. The scale changes if this happens. In this case, the 7th degree is flattened to give us the scale "C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb", or essentially the F Ionian scale. (Think about it, Mixolydian is based off the 5th degree of a scale. In F Major, the 5th degree is a C, so we use the F major scale in a different order).


Now, if we start with C Ionian and go to, let's say G Mixolydian. G Mixolydian is the G scale with a flattened 7th. That scale is "G, A, B, C, D, E, F". Hey, what do you know? That's the C major scale.


Now you see where the sharpening and flattening happen. It's all about relativity.
Afro_Raven  
15 Jun 2009 12:35 | Quote
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Moderator
If you were playing in Fmajor and wanted a Phrygian sound, you could use F Phrygian but it would sound quite weird because Phrygian is a minor scale so the 3rds of the major and minor would clash badly. Generally, Phrygian is employed in a minor key so if you were playing in Fminor you could use Phrygian then and it would sound quite cool.
However, if you're sticking with F major you would probably use A Phrygian.

Afro
les_paul  
15 Jun 2009 12:46 | Quote
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Afro has spoken
les_paul  
15 Jun 2009 12:49 | Quote
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
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I'm still not 100% on stuff like this. I only try to answer questions I think I know the answer to.

I also know if I tell someone something and it is wrong Afro or one of the other members will correct me and then I seem to understand better myself.
Admiral  
15 Jun 2009 13:56 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
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I'm not entirely sure, but think you kind of missed the point about what he was asking. For example if you are playing in G major and you want to play lydian, then you would play G Lydian which is the same as D Ionian. And the D major scale contains different notes than the G major scale.

to qoute from afro-ravens lesson:

"A mode from G major still uses all the notes from the G major scale, but instead of starting on the note G, we start on a different note from the scale and work through each of the notes in order until we hit the original starting note an octave higher."

I think this is the point of confusion. The question is why do the notes change even tough its often explained like this? And if this was not your question Cileth, then it is now my question ^^
Cileth  
15 Jun 2009 17:06 | Quote
Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Karma: 1
ok how about this. Maybe this will help me get a better understanding of all of this...
ok so say i'm playing a progression of: D x8 Bb x8 A x16 in drop D so bar chords open, 8, 7

I believe this is in F maj or D minor, please correct me if i'm wrong.

if I want to write a lead on this that sounded phrygian what scale(s) would I use to do so? What notes would I emphasize to make it sound phrygian?
telecrater  
15 Jun 2009 19:46 | Quote
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
United States
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Just when I think i got it figured out y'all confused me. I've got to go study some more theory.
DSC  
16 Jun 2009 05:18 | Quote
Joined: 31 Oct 2008
United Kingdom
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Hi Cileth

Your progression happens to fit with D phrygian nicely, it would also fit with D aeolian. The notes that will give it that beautiful phrygian sound will be the minor second (Eb) the minor 6th (Bb)

I would learn the Phrygian scale, and write songs/progressions using only the notes of that scale and you will have written a peice of modal music.

Until you get a better understanding of how modes work. Dont try and 'make modes fit your chords' 'make your chords fit the mode' this way you will at least understand their different sounds and how they will fit into different peices of music.

What helped me to understand what I consider an important part of fully understanding modes was to simply solo in Cmaj scale over a Cmaj chord or even a C drone on a keyboard (ionion)
then solo in Cmaj (for ages) over a Dmin chord (dorian)
then solo in Cmaj (for ages again!) over an Emin chord (phrygian)
then solo in Cmaj over an Fmaj chord (lydian)
etc. etc..
this way you can hear how changing the key of the music beneath your solo alters the sound of the major scale and an insight of how modes work and sound.

this is just an exercise to hear the qualities of each mode not the ideal way to learn how to use and understand them fully.

keep hacking away at it and one day it will be like turning a light switch on in your head and everything will make sense.

Sorry if this hasn't helped or confused you even more! but i thought id give it a shot. it always looks harder written down than it is in reality.

Admiral  
17 Jun 2009 01:46 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
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But can someone pls answer my question? ^^ I really don't understand that thing, and its the last thing i dont get about modes, after that i hope I'm fine ^^
DSC  
17 Jun 2009 03:14 | Quote
Joined: 31 Oct 2008
United Kingdom
Karma
Hi Admiral

I think I understand what you mean.

I think the problem is.....

G lydian IS NOT a mode of the G major scale.

G lydian is a mode from the D major scale.

G lydian is a type of Major scale but is not modally related to G major


Lydian is the 4th mode, ie. starting on the fourth note of a major scale

So the lydian scale related to G major(ionian) will be C (see below)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
g a b C d e f#

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
c d e F g a b the lydian scale relating to C major is F lydian



Please keep asking questions, because I had to ask a lot of questions, it took me ages to get it because I was over complicating things in my head.





Admiral  
17 Jun 2009 03:30 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
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Ok ok, it just hit me, but one question @justjeff:

"!The reason why notes are sharpened and flattened is if you are changing from one scale to the next... not with relative modes."

What do you mean by that? So are we talking about different topics? Because like you said in your example the flatted 7th, i was confused, because i couldnt find that in afros or jazz's lesson.

sorry to bother you again
JustJeff  
17 Jun 2009 10:28 | Quote
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In music theory, there is something that is noted at "Relativity." A relative scale is a scale that has the same notes and steps as another scale.

For example, a relative minor scale of C major is A minor, a relative minor of G major is E minor. We take the 6th degree of a scale that is major and denote that as its relative minor.

Now, if we go from our C major scale, and we want a new C modal scale, say C phrygian, we need to modify the C major scale in order to do this, since C phrygian is not a RELATIVE scale of C major. In order to find this scale, we need to modify it.

Now, I haven't read the modal lesson that is here, but to go from a C Ionian scale to a C Phrygian scale, we need to first modify our scale to the natural minor of C, which is in the pattern WHWWHWW. After doing this, we then flatten the 2nd degree, and we have C Phrygian.

Hopefully that clears something up.
league  
17 Jun 2009 10:45 | Quote
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@ JustJeff: Wait what you're saying is making sense to me.

So every sixth of a major is the relative minor

What do you use to find the relative major of a minor?

Does C major relative A minor = A major relative C minor?
Admiral  
17 Jun 2009 11:23 | Quote
Joined: 10 May 2009
Germany
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Thanks Jeff, really cleared my mind up. It didnt get that into my mind from the lessons on modes on here that you actually have to adjust that. You helped a lot!

@league

as far as i am aware you find the relative minor by going down 3 frets from the root note and the play the minor scale there. For example G major and E minor. Or C major and A minor. and to find the relative major its just the other way around. Think about it, the contain the same notes, so it is for A minor--> C major
league  
17 Jun 2009 11:46 | Quote
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@ Admiral: Thanks it works!

So every scale degree accounts for one mode. That would have made it 100 times easier.

Oddly enough I knew this occured when playing I just couldn't piece it together.
RA  
17 Jun 2009 12:23 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
DSC says:
Until you get a better understanding of how modes work. Dont try and 'make modes fit your chords' 'make your chords fit the mode' this way you will at least understand their different sounds and how they will fit into different peices of music.

What helped me to understand what I consider an important part of fully understanding modes was to simply solo in Cmaj scale over a Cmaj chord or even a C drone on a keyboard (ionion)
then solo in Cmaj (for ages) over a Dmin chord (dorian)
then solo in Cmaj (for ages again!) over an Emin chord (phrygian)
then solo in Cmaj over an Fmaj chord (lydian)
etc. etc..
this way you can hear how changing the key of the music beneath your solo alters the sound of the major scale and an insight of how modes work and sound.

this is just an exercise to hear the qualities of each mode not the ideal way to learn how to use and understand them fully.



i think this is the best thing you could do because you can read all these numbers and letters all day but remember music is about listening and if you get to caught up with all this written theory you loses track that the key is to music is to LISTEN. I find it better to do this on a piano(diatonic scales in a box) too because I can "see" it better, but that's just me try playing other instruments it might give you a new view into the world (in my opinion it would be better if the one you pick is polyphony).

also the key to modes is the intervals. I always read people writing C Ionian and A aeolian are the same scale and i get the feeling some people here are playing them like they are. while it is true in some respects "intervaly" (not a word?) they are very different. and comparing them with chords like DSC suggest will help you under stand that.


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