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Difference between the melodic minor ascending and descending

Music Theory
punkrawk101  
26 Jan 2009 05:25 | Quote
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I don't quite understand why they call it ascending and descending because they are obviously slightly different. Can anyone briefly elaborate for me?
Empirism  
26 Jan 2009 08:29 | Quote
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Ive understood that Melodic minor scale is same than natural minor except the sixth and the seventh note that are semitone (half step) up, when it is ascending mode.

When it is descending mode, it is same than natural pure minor.
brodyxhollow  
26 Jan 2009 09:52 | Quote
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I'm a little confused myself on this topic.. I tried to figure this out but to no avail.
RA  
26 Jan 2009 10:00 | Quote
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in all honesty, don't really worry about it. back in romantic music the Aeolian mode was used to descend(low pitch to high) and the melodic minor was used to ascend(high to low). so unless your playing chamber music i won't worry bout it. There is theory behind it but i have forget it because no one uses it in that way anymore
JazzMaverick  
26 Jan 2009 10:42 | Quote
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RA, you're wrong. Many people still use the melodic minor and it's always useful to learn as many scales as possible.

Here, Punkrawk101:



Melodic minor; C, D, Eb, F, G, A, B, C
1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

Descending (going backwards); C, Bb, Ab, G, F, Eb, D, C
8, b7, b6, 5, 4, b3, 2, 1


So all you're doing is flattening the 6th and 7th note.
Empirism  
26 Jan 2009 10:46 | Quote
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@brody
Umm, if you put the reverse scale tool forexample next:

c d d# f g a b c,
on one string, you see one possibility C melodic minor ascending

if you put
c d d# f g g# a# c
on one string, you see one possibility C melodic minor descending

if you examine those two variations you will see that there are sixth and seven notes in ascending mode raised by half note up.
Empirism  
26 Jan 2009 10:47 | Quote
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lol jazzy, we was writing on same time xD
JazzMaverick  
26 Jan 2009 10:51 | Quote
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haha nice one :D We've got the skill :D

Empirism, what you've written is correct, but for the sake of theory, you wouldn't write the same note twice. So D# would be Eb, ang G# would be Ab, A# would be Bb. This also saves confusion.
brodyxhollow  
26 Jan 2009 10:58 | Quote
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I'll have to look at it a little more closely when I get home from class. I need to catch up on my theory, I'm getting rusty.
Empirism  
26 Jan 2009 11:35 | Quote
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Aight, thanks jazzy. I try to get rid of that :P. I always used Eb as D# and bb as A#. It was easier to me learn things that way xD... Probably cause my Amiga music making and all those tracker stuffs...
RA  
26 Jan 2009 18:26 | Quote
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i wasn't saying not to learn the melodic minor(you have to use it play the changes) just saying not to worry about the whole ascending and descending bit. there is a reason why there called that. and that is what i feel he is asking not to just to state the intervals

i mean do you really use aeolian mode to descend then the melodic minor ascend. i mean i fool around and play modes and scales back and forth just like anybody but in romantic(could be in a other periods the only classical music i really study is Baroque and that is very limited at best) music that was the rule

-EDIT-you made me question myself thank you it helps me learn. but i found these to help understand

- http://www.jazclass.aust.com/scales/scamelm.htm -


i haven't encountered it in jazz but hey I'm just a novice
- http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?t=20422 -

o and in my search it turns out it was happening in the classical period first Mozart name was all over the place (never liked Mozart) but like i said i really only care about baroque(limited mainly Bach) through i do enjoy Beethoven ever once in awhile but to listen never to serious study

the point is just don't worry about the whole ascending/descending bit worry about the diatonic melodic minor scale(modes very use full contains Lydian dominant very nice use it a lot) and the Aeolian mode
soy.el.che  
26 Jan 2009 19:26 | Quote
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to my understanding, theyre just 2 different scales, thatsound good when played in that order(descendin w one, ascendin w the other)
Taylor  
26 Jan 2009 22:48 | Quote
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idk how melodic minor got it's name, but I do know it evolved from the harmonic scale, which is kinda funny to me, (cause the whole harmonic and melodic thing). also and easier way to look at is it's just like ionian only a flat third.

the order of chords is pretty easy to remember to (major, major, augmented, minor, minor, diminished, diminished). learning that is a good way to put chords into music from the melodic scale.

although not a lot of people write keys in melodic minor, there was one guy i heard of but he had some wierd name so i forgot it.
RA  
26 Jan 2009 23:43 | Quote
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is there any style that is keyed in melodic minor?
DSC  
27 Jan 2009 03:17 | Quote
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RA is right, unless your playing 17th century chamber music don't worry about it, just learn the melodic minor scale and enjoy it ......going up or down!
JazzMaverick  
27 Jan 2009 12:25 | Quote
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Noooooo! It's not only played in 17th Century music, I even use this scale! Soooooo many people use this! Keep researching please!

A lot of Metal players even use this, Necrophagist for example. So many Jazz musicians use it to spice up their solos, too.

Please just take a look around before you say it's not being used anymore, k? :D
RA  
27 Jan 2009 12:52 | Quote
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not to be an ass and in the most respectful way, but i think you need to read your own post take your own advice and read my post and the links i put along with mine i rechecked my thoughts and even gave one reason for it. I now more then ever think your completely missing the whole question, it is not about the melodic minor is about the ascending and descending there is a reason there called that i can't put it any more bluntly
JazzMaverick  
27 Jan 2009 13:08 | Quote
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I misread! Thanks. But I know why it's called that, I was just thinking you were telling him not to bother learning it.
soy.el.che  
27 Jan 2009 16:28 | Quote
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o... jazzy got madd.. run 4 your lifes
JazzMaverick  
27 Jan 2009 16:56 | Quote
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hahaha that wasn't me mad! you'd be amaized at how harsh i can get when I'm mad!! haha. I was more... shocked!! :P
soy.el.che  
27 Jan 2009 17:16 | Quote
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well, if thats shocked, be careful, dont let her go mad, shell destroy the entire galaxy..
n i still dont get why anything would "shock" you, i mean youre jazzy, a moderator....

oh, forgot youre human too, youve got a soul... nvm

bout the scales, its never useless to learn a new one
Taylor  
27 Jan 2009 19:13 | Quote
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RA says:
is there any style that is keyed in melodic minor?

correct me if im wrong, but it's mostly used in jazz. I think when your writing chords for it, it has a really dark sound. jazzy is right, i can still be used today, there's no reason to let one style of music hog it all up.
RA  
28 Jan 2009 04:18 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
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you two are still missing the point it is not about the scale it is about the ascending and descending bit. back in classical/romantic that used to lump the melodic minor and the Aeolian mode and I'm not going to explain i posted links read them please I'm starting to get annoyed. we use the melodic minor in a completely different way.

The melodic modes are used in jazz, but it is still keyed in major with probably some exceptions the way jazz is but i don't know them. For example Flamenco is keyed in harmonic minor.
Taylor  
28 Jan 2009 06:15 | Quote
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hey man take it easy. i was answering a different question
JazzMaverick  
28 Jan 2009 06:53 | Quote
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Look RA, you're completely missing the point in what punkrawk101 was actually typing, now to save everyone getting their pants in a bunch, all he wanted to know was the simple way of knowing what the difference was, and I already explained that in my first post on the topic. So there's no need to continue this.
RA  
28 Jan 2009 10:38 | Quote
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i not saying to not study the melodic mode and god forbid the diatonic major scale and it's mode. hell every one should study all five of the "proper seven-note scales in 12 equal temperament"(a term i don't like as i would think you all would too but hey it is what the old farts called it so what can you do).
Phip  
28 Jan 2009 17:37 | Quote
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@ RA,
I consider Jazzymaverick a good friend and although she can speak for herself, I donít like it when people attack my friends! Got a complaint, fine, but the personal attack is not cool. The topic is a bit too advanced for my level so I canít comment on who is more correct or if you are both correct but I have seen the work that Jazzmaverick has put into this site and her job as moderator and I think your comments are excessive.
Phip
RA  
28 Jan 2009 18:57 | Quote
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while i can assure you that was a breach of character for i always try to remain polite even when yelled at in my face i can however assure you it was justified. deleteding a post because it is racist, derogatory, of it attack some one in a unsitefull manner is all justly acceptable but deleting a post for good knows what reason i assume just because it proved her wrong (it did, read the link just Read any one can do it just read the first link their no theory in it) is just plan wrong. i even explained (if any one wants to talk that option against me) that i was never angry, never meant to attack anyone, though i admitted i see how Taylor might of seen it that way, and how i would never get angry, say hurtful things, or be petty(though i did in that lest post but who is prefect)when discussing things. now that would have just been a complaint and i would never of let my angry get the best of me. HOWEVER she change what i wrote physical change it that is a breach of a privilege of being a mod and that is why i flipped out that is unacceptable to delete something because your arrogant is one thing but to change what some one wrote is slander(that vocal but i can't remember the written one) and that is a crime. will i do agree she has positively changes things. rewriting what i wrote is something i will not tolerate.

-edit- it would seem that i was saying she was wrong about that facts she gave she wasn't. however saying that i was wrong is not true so in a way we were both right. however i feel this makes no senses so just read what was written ignore the theory mombo jumbo and you will see but unfortunately(seeing how no one has done it) you have to read everything
RelaxedDude  
28 Jan 2009 19:56 | Quote
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jeez looks like we got another baudelaire
blackholesun  
28 Jan 2009 20:11 | Quote
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Hang on a minute guys, what RA said many times is that the melodic minor is still used, but it doesn't have the ascending/descending variations. Did none of you guys look at that link or read what he had said?!

RA says:
no one uses it in that way anymore

i wasn't saying not to learn the melodic minor(you have to use it play the changes) just saying not to worry about the whole ascending and descending bit

it is not about the scale it is about the ascending and descending bit.


To be honest I would be p*ssed off as well if someone deleted what I was trying to say, or edited it to suit their needs. Comparing RA to Baudelaire is completely wrong as well.



Phip  
28 Jan 2009 20:25 | Quote
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blackholesun says:
Comparing RA to Baudelaire is completely wrong as well.

Agreed
RA  
28 Jan 2009 20:42 | Quote
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thank you
in a non-arguable way i thank you in thank you for not making me feel alone it means a lot. i thought i would get that baud response due to the censorship bit he pulled but I'm not like that in fact i have been using the site since Afro joined(i have always loved your questions on theory by the way it help me learn that and all the older posters like Detroitblues he knew his *** and the old guy with the mandolin) but i only joined and started posing to actually help stop all the lies baud was posting i just thought you need to know that

-edit-if a mod could delete me first post please it is a sore on my eyes and I'm quite ashamed of it
JazzMaverick  
29 Jan 2009 10:27 | Quote
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RA, I never edited any of your posts. So don't say I did! For goodness sake can you not just drop this? This is so childish. Admin can see when someone's edited a post anyway.

I had every right to delete your last post when you threatened me. I also have your last post that I deleted. I'm a mod, and I have every right to delete something when I believe it's necessary.

This topic was made because someone was asking for help. Not an argument. I'm tired of this. I don't need to justify my actions.

I got along with Baudelaire quite nicely, and I was probably the only one who did.

Empirism  
29 Jan 2009 15:22 | Quote
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I got along with baud, he never attacked me anyhow, just pointing his opinions, but he was arrogant, childish and spikey towards the others.

Ive been away a little and didnt saw any of these "deleted" posts, but if I look whole thread (yes, and studied, those links. Those are very good), I can see RA telling his opinion and have very valid grounds when he do so (and here I speak with the musical arguments, not the argue or blackouts...) and for me he act very mature way. As he did in countless of posts Ive seen.

Though when there are two who have very high musical knowledge is discussing with two different opinions or "approach" I may say in this case, result could be like this. You are both very intelligent and knowledgeable persons and I strongly suggest that you use your properties and both let it be. There are no need to strenghten ego in anyway or having argue of point of views.

Make Love, Not War
Empirism
Taylor  
29 Jan 2009 22:10 | Quote
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Empirism says:
There are no need to strenghten ego in anyway or having argue of point of views.
I'd have to agree with Empirism
punkrawk101  
11 Feb 2009 20:02 | Quote
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
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Despite the somewhat constructive bickering i think i got the picture. Melodic minor is simply 2 different variations of the harmonic minor scale. One with a flat 3rd (ascending), and one with a flat 6th and 7th (descending). I agree that it is not so important why it is called what it's called because it just is. But i also can't imagine that this scale has become obsolete. I've been a guitar player for about 10 years now but only within the past year have i finally began to really take thoery seriously and since i began my studies the melodic minor scales have quickly become one of my favorite scales to play.
RA  
11 Feb 2009 20:37 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
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melodic minor ascending and descending is not 2 variations of the harmonic minor scale. the melodic minor scale(ascending) nor the Aeolian mode(descending) are not obsolete.

funny thing through Justin Sandercoe just did a thing on minors and simplified it nicely(his blaming on Bach is sewed though[mainly just didn't like the tone i love Bach] and as it turns out it first showed up in baroque so i was off 200 years) check it out

http://www.justinguitar.com/en/SC-013-DemystifyMinors.php
punkrawk101  
11 Feb 2009 20:58 | Quote
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
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Taylor says:
idk how melodic minor got it's name, but I do know it evolved from the harmonic scale
Quote:
Well i know it's the melodic minor. But if the descending is just the aeolian mode of the ascending then where does the flat 6th and 7th come from?
punkrawk101  
11 Feb 2009 21:00 | Quote
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
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wow i didn't work that quote function very well did?
RA  
11 Feb 2009 21:08 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
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i'm confused????

read the link it will help. trust me it is simple. Justin's a really good teacher.

melodic minor = 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7

Pure minor(Aeolian mode) = 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7


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