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Modes

Technique
DrumMedic  
25 Oct 2008 16:47 | Quote
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
United States
Karma
Okay, Afro-Raven this specifically kinda goes to you but everybody else please feel free to comment. Awhile ago I picked up guitar and was writing about scales and how I was astounded how by learning one or two scales it opened up so many doors to other scales. You told me I should try to focus on learning the modes. Since then I've moved and started a a new job in Fresno, CA so I hadn't played my guitar as much as I wanted. Finally though I went out and bought an electric set up and can't put the damn thing down.

Whomever mentioned to memorize the fret board is a damn genious, as that has really opened my mind up to understanding scales and chords much more clearly... though I still have a lot to remember, it's not as easy as I hoped.

But back to modes. So, my understanding is that each mode has a different root note, Aeolian - C, Dorian - D... and so on. Is there specific "box" formations that go with each particular mode.... kind of like how the pentatonic has it's 5 box style fingerings? I've been looking but generally people on youtube or various sites just show 1 pattern, but they are all ***ing different too.... Would I be better off just using the web sites Scale tool and learning each scale in it's related key, or going onto ModeMaster.com or something?
I hope this makes sense... I'm just looking for the best way to go about learning this properly so I don't screw myself and at the same time not make it more difficult than it really is... and yes I know a guitar teacher would be really really helpful about now for me, soon perhaps.
EMB5490  
25 Oct 2008 17:31 | Quote
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
United States
Lessons: 1
Licks: 1
Karma: 31
idk if im telling u stuff u know but heres what i think ur saying. take a c maj, so sharps or flats.

c ionian(maj)c-c
d dorian (mode of the minor scale)d-d
e phrygian (mode of minor scale, also is inside aeolian and often not considered a scale) e-e
f lydian (mode of major scale) f-f
g mixolydian (mode of maj scale) g-g
a aeolian (minor scale)
locrian (this is a dark sounding scale but is all of its own.)

now how does this relate?
there are 7 notes in a maj scale, thus u get 7 scales/modes of the ma scale, in the pentatonic scale there are 5 notes in a scale thus the 5 modes/scales.

also the chords relate also

the chords for c in a lesson by bodom are

c-maj
d-min
e-min
f-maj
g-maj
a-min
b-dim
c-maj

as u can see these are the same as the scales. many ppl say there are 5 modes of the maj scale. there are 7. u have to count the minor modes. also learn the circle of fiths, really helps.

see bodom's lesson, relly helped me.
JazzMaverick  
25 Oct 2008 18:32 | Quote
Joined: 28 Aug 2008
United Kingdom
Lessons: 24
Licks: 37
Karma: 47
Moderator
The "box" you can see is only an easy way to remember it. You should hopefully be able to learn how each "box" links together. An idea of how to do this is go down in one position, say G Major, then slide and go up in A Dorian and so on until you get to the octave and go back down again but opposite.

Then start playing the scale in different positions around the fret board. What you should hopefully learn is to understand the notes, not the positions. and it'll make it a lot easier.

Also memorise chords and licks, but learn them everywhere!! I really hope you learn everything everywhere and not just on a certain fret position, otherwise you'll be really limited and have a harder time getting out of it and learning it in other places. This will help you to move around the fret board a lot easier whilst improvising, writing solos or even songs.

I have a lesson on the "Major Scale and Modes Within" if you're interested. There are ideas of positions you could use, but I also write about learning it in different ways.
RA  
25 Oct 2008 19:07 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
there are many different box/position patterns, but as jazz said they are learning tools and should be out grow and knowing the fret board is the first step. the most common position and the one always used for(at lest of what I've seen) pentatonic (6add9) is the chord grip boxes (aka the "CAGED" system). to truly understand modes, position playing (at lest i find) is really limiting. i find it better to just to find the tonic of the mode on each string and play the scale up ways, side ways , back ways, front ways, and all the other ways. do that for each mode. then soon will will start to see the deep patterns of the guitar (due to tuning and will start to understand alt turnings as well) and learn to hate that b@aster B string for it major third jump up and it's argumentative jump down. but with out it harmony would not be so easy on the guitar (single note would be easy).


i forgot, the positions your seeing on the internet is mostly just starting at the mode's tonic on the lowest string then working up but as you already see that is just dumb.
JazzMaverick  
25 Oct 2008 19:33 | Quote
Joined: 28 Aug 2008
United Kingdom
Lessons: 24
Licks: 37
Karma: 47
Moderator
I wouldn't say something's dumb. It's just a starting point for people to understand. You discourage people from learning if you insult ways that they're learning. Perhaps saying it could be better would be a nicer way of putting it.

But RA is right, take a look at the CAGED system too. It really depends on what you're interested in learning. But make sure to take your time! don't rush ahead. :)
RA  
25 Oct 2008 19:48 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
i agree, didn't mean to sound arrogant i was just point out what he was already finding to be limiting, quite silly and leaving out so much of whats really there. also i found those diagrams very hurtful to my understanding because of the way they started them (i knew there was more but it wasn't telling) so i was talking out my anger you could say. but i should of also add check out that Justin sandacore (no idea how to spell it, just type "Justin guitar" in Google)) lessons i remember him having good diagrams and a mode comparison chart which really help out with diatonic chord structure.
DrumMedic  
26 Oct 2008 05:35 | Quote
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
United States
Karma
JazzMaverick you mention playing the Gmaj and then sliding up to play the Dorian... would that basically be the same as playing a Mixolydian and scaling up into a Dorian?
I think there's a certain piece of understanding that just hasn't quite clicked yet but RA I agree entirely when you say that a lot of these web sites out there are just "dumb" they really only offer up a extremely small piece of the puzzle and to focus any effort on what these people are offering up becomes a waste of time and hurts you more than helps you without seeing the greater picture.

I'll take a look at those web sites and see if maybe something clicks... Right now anything set up in a pretty package "box" or "caged" is perfect for me until I memorize the fret board and really can actively see and feel my way out of the box. I can see the light but it is still far off.
JoeDalton  
26 Oct 2008 05:41 | Quote
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Karma: 1
I think what she means is to just move up one mode at a time. So when playing myxolidian, slide down into lydian or up into aeolian to see how the different modes touch eachother.

Best way to learn your fretboard is to start reading musical notation, pick up some pieces and read notes not tabs. You will master the fretboard in notime

Like you said yourself, a teacher would be a lot better than a forum.
DrumMedic  
26 Oct 2008 06:04 | Quote
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
United States
Karma
I believe this is what I was looking for... similar to the "caged" system with the minor Pentatonic scale... the Lesson Bodom has layed out with a "caged" Modal system which allows me to learn the 7 shapes in an easy fashion and string them together until I feel comfortable scaling up and down them.

Now actually incorporating an understanding of there application to transverse my way across the fret board in a logical formation will be a little bit later down the road.
DrumMedic  
26 Oct 2008 17:22 | Quote
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
United States
Karma
I don't totally get the Circle of Fifth's chart but I'll take a closer look after I commit the 7 Caged Modes to memory.

Joe, gotta agree with you, learning to read music probably would really help commit the fret board to memory... I think I'm just super resistant to doing it though. I have various books and DVD/CD's I own that make it easy if I just applied myself. I think for now I just want to learn a couple heavily used scales just for jamming and practice sessions.

I'm still not totally clear on how to properly play the correct mode or scale to the key I want though. I saw Bodom put up a really nice chart in the lessons section on how to recognize what key your playing... which will take some time to memorize, but for I guess for the time being to keep it simple...
One particular web site I think has really thrown me off guard, basically the way it had described the modes were only by name... and each mode had it's own set notes it HAD to be in... for instance.

Ionian - CDEFGABC
Dorian - DEFGABC
Phrygian - EFGABCD
Lydian - FGABCDE
Mixolydian - GABCDEF
Aeolian - ABCDEFG
Locrian - BCDEFG

So when I see this list, it makes me think that the scale cannot be played in any alternate formation... but then I look at the "caged" method and to me that seems more practical... where as it is a series of patterns rather than set keys that is followed... which would allow me to shift the patterns up and down the fret depending on if I would like to use a Ionian in the key of G or what not.

Follow me? These other web sites have just really screwed me up.. I shouldn't have even bothered to venture outside of this forum and lesson group.

JoeDalton  
26 Oct 2008 17:32 | Quote
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Karma: 1
Yeah, really what matters in scales is the intervals, not the notes themselves. The easy thing about the guitar though is you never need to learn more than one version of a scale like C major that you learned, just start from any different note and play the same shapes.
RA  
26 Oct 2008 18:05 | Quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
United States
Karma: 16
Yeah joe's right what really matters is the intervals don't get to hung up on the names. AS for the "CAGED" "method" it is being used as a acronym not a word. C stands for C shape chord in open position, A Stands for A shape in open position, Etc. there is only FIVE POSITIONS in this train of thought. it is really hard to explain it to you over the internet. i think someone said it before it is best to get a teacher or find a friend who knows it.

as for understanding the modes i found "advancing guitarist" by mick goodrick concept of the uni-guitar really helps understanding the intervals. however this book is not for beginners and i wouldn't really recommend it. it is raved about on the internet but is doesn't really teach you anything just sates a different way to look at things not the best book ever as may have calmed (good for what it is). i can scan the chapters if you want but i don't know the legality of it does anybody know if it is legal or not?

Edit: it won't help in knowing what scale/mode to play justs helps you understand and more importantly hear the different modes
DrumMedic  
26 Oct 2008 18:23 | Quote
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
United States
Karma
Yah I have Mon-Wed off work so I'm going to call up this guy that offered to help me learn guitar when I was shopping for my Electric last week. Hopefully he knows how to teach and is reliable.

Bodoms lesson on the 7 modal positions and proper application has really helped me. I'm definitely not looking forward to memorizing his "keys by bodom" lesson but I think that is going to be an important part of being able to apply the proper chords and scales down the road when I'm playing.

...I'll have to take a look for information on intervals as well when I get off work tomorrow. Your basically referring to the whole whole half whole whole whole half sort of intervals I'm assuming so when we play our scales, musically they tie together appropriately, correct? When I am capable of freely being able to run outside of the box and really just go crazy with my scales, that'll be a very fun day for me. Especially if I can get to finger tapping. Not quite there yet, hahah.

Off to work, and to save lives! Thanks for all the posts you guys, it's very appreciated.
JoeDalton  
27 Oct 2008 08:31 | Quote
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Karma: 1
Just to make sure it isn't explained the wrong way, I was just saying that what you learned about the C major scale is the same for every other root note, not that notes and where they are in scales and on the fretboard are not incredibly important.


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