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diminished pentatonic minor

Music Theory
madman3123  
21 Oct 2008 10:11 | Quote
Joined: 08 May 2008
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i was wondering is their any other names for this scale cause its not in the scale section of this site and if it even is a real scale =S

im sure it is as apparently black sabbath and marilyn manson use it alot
brodyxhollow  
21 Oct 2008 10:17 | Quote
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
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its just the regular pentatonic minor with a diminished fifth, i think.

take the a minor pentatonic, flat the fifth (e) to an e flat, and there you go.
JazzMaverick  
21 Oct 2008 10:24 | Quote
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I've never even heard of the scale. It doesn't exist.

The Diminished scale is made only by a sequence of half step (semitone) and whole step (tone). I suggest to use it just on the dominant 7th and diminished 7th chord in a jazz context. There are two different ways to start the diminished scale:

1. Diminished scale starting on a semi-tone (half-setp)
2. Diminished scale starting on a tone (whole-step)

There are 12 diminished scales that exist. But they can be simplified into three scale types.

1. C, C#, Eb, E, F#, G, A, Bb
2. D, D#, F, F#, G#, A, B, C
3. E, F, G, G#, Bb, B, C#, D

Diminished-whole tone scale ( also called super locrian or altered scale). I suggest to use it just on the dominant 7th chord in a jazz context.







madman3123  
21 Oct 2008 10:45 | Quote
Joined: 08 May 2008
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ok its just i wasnt sure if it existed anyway as i heard of it on wikipedia
"Many of the album's riffs are based around the notes of a diminished pentatonic minor scale. This scale in D runs D E F G Ab, and is a staple of metal songwriting, being preferred due to its dark tone (this being due to its combination of a minor key and the inclusion of the tri-tone Devil's Interval, the interval brought to rock in the main riff of the song "Black Sabbath", and banned in the middle ages for its supposedly demonic qualities)."

just from that description is there any pentatonic under say a different name that ticks those boxs???
JazzMaverick  
21 Oct 2008 11:41 | Quote
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Wikipedia is just random people filling in some pages. It's not definite fact that whatever is on Wikipedia is correct because it's not from legitimate people.
JoeDalton  
21 Oct 2008 12:19 | Quote
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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First off, a scale is 7 notes or more, pentatonic is in fact not a scale.

Secondly I'd fill it out with Bb C
bodom  
21 Oct 2008 14:34 | Quote
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A scale doesnt have to be 7 notes. Penta means 5, so there are only 5 notes.
JoeDalton  
21 Oct 2008 14:47 | Quote
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Could be a dutch thing. We don't call the pentatonic or whole tone and such a scale. We have different words for those.
But let's face it, english is a lazy language :P
bodom  
21 Oct 2008 15:24 | Quote
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I couldn't agree more :D
JoeDalton  
21 Oct 2008 15:25 | Quote
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well you know what they say.
The Joe is our wise and mercifull saviour and we must give him all our money.
EMB5490  
21 Oct 2008 15:33 | Quote
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not all scales are 7 notes, just the maj and its modes. as bodom said, penta means 5, thus 5 notes in the scale and its modes.
BodomBeachTerror  
21 Oct 2008 15:45 | Quote
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JoeDalton says:
The Joe is our wise and mercifull saviour and we must give him all our money.


Im broke! big time broke! rappin is easy, but sellin my CD's is a whole new ball game, the Joe is a small name, tired of gettin pushed in the hallway all day!
JoeDalton  
21 Oct 2008 15:56 | Quote
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Karma: 1
EMB5490 says:
not all scales are 7 notes, just the maj and its modes. as bodom said, penta means 5, thus 5 notes in the scale and its modes.

Yes we have been over this, if you look above, I said it is probably not the same in english as it is a lazy language, all is well in the world.

GRX40  
21 Oct 2008 18:38 | Quote
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brodyxhollow says:
its just the regular pentatonic minor with a diminished fifth, i think.

take the a minor pentatonic, flat the fifth (e) to an e flat, and there you go.


Isn't that the same as the Pentatonic Blues? OR am I mistaken?
madman3123  
22 Oct 2008 10:59 | Quote
Joined: 08 May 2008
United Kingdom
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well i thought the pentatonic scales were more of a pattern but i say scale to avoid confusion

is it a scale?
and i stuck the notes from that wiki extract into scale name it came up with nil
JoeDalton  
22 Oct 2008 11:20 | Quote
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The dutch call it a patern yes (in dutch een reeks)
But it could be that the english are lazy.
Calvin  
22 Oct 2008 12:22 | Quote
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@JoeDalton:They aren't lazy, they are just more liberal at defining scales. as you probably know, scales aren't defined by the number of tones they consist of, but by their musical characteristics and application. So some music theorists( like Elie Siegmeister for instance) will refer to pentatonics as patterns and others(like let's say Slonimsky) will refer to them as scales. Who's right and who's wrong is debatable, but I'd don't wanna go there, 'cause we have already had a rather heated debate over that issue about a month ago and I don't wanna start it all over again.
Here's the link to that topic:
http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/topic.php?id=1825
JoeDalton  
22 Oct 2008 13:26 | Quote
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Karma: 1
Hey hey hey, lets face it, if you live in england you are by definition lazy, otherwise you would move your ass to place with less crappy weather.

I mean honestly, if you live in a place where fish and chips is considered your snack food, move!
KicknGuitar  
22 Oct 2008 13:59 | Quote
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Call it what you may, it is a Pentatonic scale for the reason what a scale is,
It is the same reason why we don't call diatonic scale, only a pattern, or the chromatic scale, only a pattern. If want to call it a pattern, sure, but don;t forget scales are the base and then you create patterns or licks or riffs from it or even combining them to create new one.

We don't pass off pentatonic (at least we shouldn't) because we also don't pass off whole tone scales as patterns nor octatonic nor hexatonic.

Take a listen to some pentatonic scales being utilized here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX1_Df-mmCc
JoeDalton  
22 Oct 2008 14:10 | Quote
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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You people seem to miss that I said it could well be different in english, it's just the dutch defenition. Meaning in dutch it's defined as such, no debate. If it's different there, I don't really care to debate it, since well, once again, defined as such, you can look it up in the dutch dictionary if you want.

Personally I feel it makes a lot more sense to differentiate because of certain elements in for instance pentatonic but I don't care if it's different in english call it a pile of horse**** you can still use it to play.
JazzMaverick  
22 Oct 2008 15:51 | Quote
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Unfortunately this discussion was spoken about before - if the Pentatonic was considered a scale or not. But none of us will change our opinion on the matter, because so many think differently.

Which is also why I don't think it's really important to discuss.

It's a bunch of notes put together and it has a name. Isn't that good enough? It's not very preductive just arguing about what it's considered.
davemaison  
18 Nov 2012 18:23 | Quote
Joined: 18 Nov 2012
Karma
hi, very new, but i'm gonna throw my 2 cents in anyway.

never heard of a diminished pentatonic.

just sounds like the blues scale as a minor pentatonic. Blues scale is something that black sabbath used quite a bit...

also, pentatonics are scales, they're just not diatonic or heptatonic like everyone's used to hearing. I've never heard of any one using the term 'pattern' to describe a succession of tones between two octaves. only ever heard of patterns in reference to rhythm.
carlsnow  
30 Nov 2012 13:52 | Quote
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Pent and Pent-Minor are both scales that can be altered easily (i teach them as "boxes" on the neck) they have (any scale can) "modes" lol attached to them , which i find hilarious, the flat 5 i believe you referred to IN a pent = pent w/ b5 (or #4) nothing fancy about it.

BTW
a Blues Scale is an oxymoron. Its a feel, not a b5, lol , that makes the line blue.
the whole "theory" jabber is hilarious to me when i think of the blues (grew up on them in the Delta) I mean, really, did Son House, Lighnin' Hopkins , etc-etc even know or care what a scale was? naw, lol, especially not John Lee Hooker.

so HAVE FUN :) "theory" can wait (forever if ya want lol)
screw that symto-hyno-monic poo

grab a smile , grab a Plank, PLAY ....
learn all that other yabber when ya have to teach some kid how to play 'Trane or Miles (nothing wrong w/ that , it's paid my bills fer EONS LOL,
>>>juss saying "fun trumps theory" every time.
IT DO :)

RAWK!
Empirism  
8 Dec 2012 22:40 | Quote
Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Finland
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carlsnow says:
a Blues Scale is an oxymoron. Its a feel, not a b5, lol , that makes the line blue.
the whole "theory" jabber is hilarious to me when i think of the blues (grew up on them in the Delta) I mean, really, did Son House, Lighnin' Hopkins , etc-etc even know or care what a scale was? naw, lol, especially not John Lee Hooker.
!


Haha, couldnt agree more.. but I think... Well, Son House and many that time blues mans, was heavily influenced and teached also (i dun know if its a fact anyway...) by Charlie Patton, I think I dun have to introduce that man to Ol' Carl ^_^... And Patton, had deep understanding of musical stuff... so... I have a hunch that they knew about scales thou :D...

aand, I seen an interview of some Old man from random farm, put two nails to doorframe and strained a steel string to that... when he sings and stroked that..."thing"... it sounded super bluesy stuff, but... wonder what scale THAT was? :D...

anyway, I will and forever will follow this...

carlsnow says:
grab a smile , grab a Plank, PLAY .... !


-Empy

carlsnow  
9 Dec 2012 08:47 | Quote
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Empirism says:
but I think... Well, Son House and many that time blues mans, was heavily influenced and teached also (i dun know if its a fact anyway...) by Charlie Patton,


:)
Patton and House played together (in barns, etc) quite a bit before the late 20's when House became a Preacher full-time (he did of course return to the blues) ... They were contemporaries and i feel certain, though no (believable)written-account exists, that they influenced each other.
One interesting part of the House/Patton story centers around a very "pretty young man"-SH that they took under their wing at these barn dances, Robert Johnson. They had to send young Robert away due to the fact that his good looks kept (remember , everyone was drinking) making the men in the barn, the 'audience' VERY jealous, as the women fawned and dotted on young Robert, at times to a violent end. Finally one knife too many was drawn on them due to this and it was decided that Robert was bad for, lol, their health, and so he was not asked to play with them anymore. Robert surely learned a LOT from both men, just as he and others did from Rev Gary Davis and others.
THIS part of the blues story (lower delta) is fascinating for many many reasons, and reaches the upper delta and Texas in a cross-pollination that spawned the many blues forms we now take for granted.

there are many great books and recordings on the subject, but to my mind, the Pulitzer Prize winning : 'The Land Where Blues Began' by the late great Alan Lomax stand head and shoulders above the rest, and if you want to really really get down and dirty with the history of the Blues (my personal favorite art-form)I would highly recommend purchasing a copy. I think that to this date i have bought at least 5 copies (i keep giving them to students and such) and still keep one close at hand.
Alan Lomax was "that guy who rode around recording these guys first", as a study for Fisk University , then later for his love of the art.
He was the mn responsible for the first recordings of Prison Songs at Partchman's Farm, of (my fav)Fred MacDowell, House, Patton, Muddy (pre nickname), etc-etc-etc

Phip has the book and i am certain would give an "Amen"

when we step back and look at music for musics sake, play music for the sake of playing it, we begin to reach the untethered expression that these cats changed the world with.

and yeah man, when someone can free themselves enough from 'the rules' and simply PLAY, ...well, that's the bee's knee's :)
(i mean we call it PLAY-ing for reason...)

RAWK!
Cs
Empirism  
9 Dec 2012 14:11 | Quote
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I knew you would not let me down again m8, I eager to read these, that I dun have a "cultural possibilities" to guarantee best information I really want.

carlsnow says:
THIS part of the blues story (lower delta) is fascinating for many many reasons, and reaches the upper delta and Texas in a cross-pollination that spawned the many blues forms we now take for granted.!


Very fascinating indeed, I also have a "strange habit" that I want to know "everything" that are in my interests and blues is one of these things, especially how important impression blues marked to known musical world. I still have much "in concealment" how actual that area affected to blues evolution. One my interest is also Freddie Spruel that I have not found but internet information. Story around Skip James is also a very cool...

carlsnow says:
the Pulitzer Prize winning : 'The Land Where Blues Began' by the late great Alan Lomax !


thanks m8, I definately check that out.
-Emp
carlsnow  
11 Dec 2012 14:05 | Quote
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Empirism says:
I knew you would not let me down again m8, I eager to read these, that I dun have a "cultural possibilities" to guarantee best information I really want.

carlsnow says:
THIS part of the blues story (lower delta) is fascinating for many many reasons, and reaches the upper delta and Texas in a cross-pollination that spawned the many blues forms we now take for granted.!


Very fascinating indeed, I also have a "strange habit" that I want to know "everything" that are in my interests and blues is one of these things, especially how important impression blues marked to known musical world. I still have much "in concealment" how actual that area affected to blues evolution. One my interest is also Freddie Spruel that I have not found but internet information. Story around Skip James is also a very cool...

carlsnow says:
the Pulitzer Prize winning : 'The Land Where Blues Began' by the late great Alan Lomax !


thanks m8, I definately check that out.
-Emp!



scuse me fer copying the 'whole shebang' above ; didn't quite know how else to toss this idea out IN context, dig?

the idea i am tossing is this ... mebbe (the man loves his blues) Cpt. Phip or someone else who is **far better than yers truly,at setting a lesson/thread/thing-a-ma-jig **(a 5-yr old would qualify, lol,) could give us a Blues Central here, wherein we could further discuss, show licks, vids, etc of this art to one another and learn/grow from it. ....just a thought.

Phip  
18 Dec 2012 17:32 | Quote
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Emperism,
yeah man, you gotta read that book by Lomax. By the time you're done you'll not only understand the genesis of the blues far beyond what you already know but you'll have a new found respect for the early founders and the author too. If you can't find a copy of Alan Lomax's book I'll send you my copy. I'll have Carl sign it, then I'll sign it and when you are done with it you can sign it and pass it on to the next worthy future "bluesman". We could end up sending the thing around the globe a few times!
just a thought. We could include a small usb stick and every person who gets the book would include themselves playing a favorite blues tune and send that along with the book. how cool would that be?
Phip
MoshZilla1016  
19 Dec 2012 07:25 | Quote
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Phip says:
I'll have Carl sign it, then I'll sign it and when you are done with it you can sign it and pass it on to the next worthy future "bluesman". We could end up sending the thing around the globe a few times!
just a thought. We could include a small usb stick and every person who gets the book would include themselves playing a favorite blues tune and send that along with the book. how cool would that be?

Very Cool!!!!!!

carlsnow says:
a Blues Scale is an oxymoron. Its a feel, not a b5, lol , that makes the line blue.

I couldn't agree more. What makes a MAJOR blues scale blue? There is no b5 so it's the feel that gives it the blues.
Phip  
19 Dec 2012 18:50 | Quote
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Mosh,
Book could end up at your house. ;)
Of course, being from Alabama you probably know most of what's in it.

Phip
MoshZilla1016  
19 Dec 2012 21:29 | Quote
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Yeah, but the fun starts when you find you know the things you didn't think you knew. You know??
Empirism  
23 Dec 2012 02:25 | Quote
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Finland
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Pretty cool idea man :)... just checked the local library, but no luck :/... anyway, im keep on huntin'
Phip  
24 Dec 2012 17:21 | Quote
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MoshZilla1016 says:
Yeah, but the fun starts when you find you know the things you didn't think you knew. You know??


I don't have a clue, but yeah I know what you mean! ;)

Phip
btimm  
24 Dec 2012 22:13 | Quote
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We have a Phip AND CS sighting?! If JustJeff throws up a tune and I see another tune from GS124, then I will have definitely received Christmas early!
Guitarslinger124  
27 Dec 2012 10:05 | Quote
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well, actually you're in luck, I do have a relatively new song which I haven't posted here, it is called, "The Zephyrs Crossing", and you can hear it at www.showcaseyourmusic.com/lann124
btimm  
27 Dec 2012 10:31 | Quote
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Nice, I will check it out soon!


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